S1E14 Transformation in Horror

Let's talk about transformation! We are born to change across the lifespan, but horror movies often give us extreme examples of transformation with gory practical effects and tragic character arcs. Join us as we tune into the art of transformation and discuss a couple of our favorite films while noting the psychological unpinnings of alchemy on screen and in psychotherapy.

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Candy 0:57

Spoiler alert for this episode. We're going to be talking about Suspiria, the new one, and the devil's advocate. Hello, beautiful people. Welcome to the Cloaked Tatters podcast. I am Candy.

Sandi 1:12

And I am Sandy. And we are having a conversation today about transformation. We thought in talking about transformation today that we would address a few films perhaps for each of us that strike us as being meaningful to us in some personal way that illustrate what transformation is and what the process is. for myself, as a student of psychology and a clinical therapist and being a Jungian, inspired therapist. I'm in no way into psychoanalysis. However, find Carl Jung's work to be, um, deep and true for most humans. And What he believed the equation of transformation meant was it was equated to alchemy.

Candy 2:05

Okay.

Sandi 2:06

Yeah. when you think about alchemy, what do you think of?

Candy 2:12

I think about the combining of things to create another thing. I mean, whatever that is. I mean, my brain goes to full metal alchemist, but not that I'm a hardcore fan, but, but that, that's what I think of.

Sandi 2:30

So that is correct. Attended a presentation on that in grad school that was fantastic. So the word alchemy actually translates to the art of transformation.

Candy 2:44

Okay.

Sandi 2:45

And when we think about the word transformation or alchemy, I'm going to use those interchangeably. When we think about that in terms of psychotherapy and working with someone, the therapist is not necessarily the alchemist per se, because Jung had a theory that We have, as each individual human in the world, we each have everything we need inside of us to become our best self, or our most, yeah,

Candy 3:17

Okay.

Sandi 3:18

you're looking at me in such a way like, Mmm, I'm not sure if I buy that.

Candy 3:23

I want to hear more about that. Um, I withdrew from college the semester that we were going to study young, so I didn't get my, my full dose of it. So I want to hear it. My brain's a sponge and I want to know more.

Sandi 3:41

I know this about you. So, to further explain it, When he says we have everything that we need within us to heal and to become our highest self. What that really means is that not necessarily that we have the knowledge of all of those things, we have layers of the subconscious, our consciousness, our subconscious, and then our unconscious. that through experiences, And meeting different people and growing as a person in our self awareness we grow into our individuated self. that means that through learning and life lessons, the things that are already sort of inherent within us often get pulled out. And that's sort of the art of being a therapist.

Candy 4:31

Okay, I want to repeat what I'm hearing. So I make sure, like, I know that I'm understanding this. So we don't, of course, we're not born with the skills to do squat. We have to learn them, but we have within us the innate ability to take the steps that we need to get to the point of transformation. Is that

Sandi 4:54

yes,

Candy 4:55

I getting that? Okay. Okay. All right.

Sandi 4:58

So I sort of liken it to, you're walking down a long hallway, and there's lots and lots of doors. And some of those doors, you have a key for, and then some of those doors, They're not quite open yet because you don't have the right key or the key has a little bit of like, you know, a metal piece sticking out of it where it's not inserting into the lock correctly.

Candy 5:24

Okay.

Sandi 5:25

continue to live life and individuate across the lifespan, we get more keys to open more doors. So, and then doors are sort of the subconscious and the unconscious.

Candy 5:37

Okay. That makes sense. I'm, I'm picking up what you're putting down.

Sandi 5:40

Awesome. So when we think about, and part of the reason why we started this podcast was to discuss some of the transformative nature of trauma and what we know about healing from trauma is that, We tend to feel kind of broken when we're in it and we're not healed when we're in that sort of unhealed or semi healed state

Candy 6:04

Right?

Sandi 6:05

more healing that takes place, the more capable we feel and the happier we feel and the more whole we feel. that's sort of where, I don't know. I think that what happens in therapy rooms and you've been with a therapist before so have I and I am a therapist and I always tell my clients, I'm not responsible for your growth and development, but I am going to help you off those keys so that we can continue to unlock doors.

Candy 6:35

Yes. I would say that in all my therapy that I've had is what therapists provide our tools so that we can make the keys to unlock the doors.

Sandi 6:50

That's right.

Candy 6:51

Yeah,

Sandi 6:52

So when I think of therapy, I think it's like magic. And since I identify as sort of a witchy poo type, that makes a lot of sense for me at a soul level and at a level of I'm going to help during sessions help infuse knowledge and skills that that person may be able to use to shave off the extra of that key to get that next door to open. We open the door, that feels like what I call the aha moments and what many in our field use the aha moment, the, Oh my God, I can't believe what. And then you go, what just happened? And they go, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And you go, yeah,

Candy 7:37

Epiphanies.

Sandi 7:38

yes,

Candy 7:39

Yes. Okay. I love that.

Sandi 7:43

So there's, there's this idea that like, I don't know, I guess there's an idea that floats around sometimes that people with some clients who show up to therapy and they sort of expect us to do all the work.

Candy 7:56

Right.

Sandi 7:58

No, that's not happening. not the alchemist in the room. You are, but together we mix and we mingle and we work at the issues that are coming up and We start to work together to make the keys all that much sharper so that when we stick the key in we go Okay, I see.

Candy 8:21

Yeah. Work on the patient's part or client. I don't know what you prefer. Uh, is crucial. It's, it's crucial. I have, uh, you know, a handful of friends that have been in therapy for a really long time and it seems like they're in the same place that they've been for like a decade or more and I'm like, well, okay, well, what do you do in therapy? Like what, you know, and, I just want to touch on this real quick because you got to have the right ingredients and that means having the right therapist, you know, not everybody is a good fit and not only the therapy, but some of us do need chemical intervention, you know, until we can rewire our brains, or, Sometimes it's permanent. Sometimes it's temporary. Sometimes I have to take Lexapro, you know, and sometimes I'm, I'm okay, you know, and it's a matter of finding the right combination of ingredients. And that means the, the right therapist and the right type of therapy. There are so many different modalities. And you got to try different combinations until you find the right one.

Sandi 9:45

right I agree with you to a point

Candy 9:49

Tell me about that.

Sandi 9:51

I have a firm belief in Carl Rogers, who is sort of the king and the founder of client centered therapy, which means you show up in the room and you don't do anything except follow the client where they go and provide reflection and support and validation and you let them work it out. There's very minimal intervention assistance from the therapist in the room. The professional sits there and reflects and validates and says, That sounds really hard. And research after research study has shown that most of the time, in a majority of cases, It is the relationship between the client and the therapist that's healing, and it doesn't matter what you do. Modality makes very little difference.

Candy 10:46

Really? Oh, that's fascinating. Okay. Huh. Is it, I mean, is part of it, the connection, just being able to connect on the same frequency, plain topic, whatever you want to call it with, with another person that understands. Is it? Is that what it is?

Sandi 11:09

Correct. And, and as you

Candy 11:11

Okay.

Sandi 11:12

every therapist can serve every client.

Candy 11:16

Right.

Sandi 11:17

And sometimes, like, I know that I attract a very trauma heavy caseload. I always have, I currently do, and I always will. And I have a firm belief it's because like attracts like.

Candy 11:30

Yes.

Sandi 11:31

I know what it's like to feel deeply traumatized by circumstances and things that were out of my control, that were foisted onto me through no choice of my own. And so when I meet people who have had a similar journey, there's a, there's like a kismet that happens. Like, and I can feel the connection in the room, almost like a little like electricity, like little shocks of like, Oh,

Candy 11:57

Mm-Hmm.

Sandi 11:57

going to get this person. And, and I rarely lose clients. I rarely have people quit therapy. I've probably had maybe, maybe six or 10 clients disappear

Candy 12:10

That's very impressive.

Sandi 12:14

I'm not going to like toot my own horn, but okay,

Candy 12:16

That's okay. I, I think you should Mm-Hmm.

Sandi 12:20

And most of the time when people go missing, There's a very good reason for that and I have a firm belief for myself. I don't chase clients I will check in once maybe a couple times depending on risk and protective factors for that particular person But I'm not going to chase clients and I also don't take it personally when they leave with zero explanation

Candy 12:43

Okay. And, and I like that. I like that because I mean, we have to, as individuals, we need to be responsible for our actions and. It's not fair for one person, the therapist, to have to chase after like however many clients they've got, you know, the one takes care of the one,

Sandi 13:03

Yes,

Candy 13:03

know,

Sandi 13:05

a majority of the time. I'm gonna I'm gonna guesstimate 90 percent of the time, when somebody goes missing from treatment, they will come back and they will try to apologize and say, I'm so sorry. I ghosted you. I'm so sorry. I left without explanation and I wasn't ready.

Candy 13:27

that's like addiction and getting help for addiction. It's, it's the same thing.

Sandi 13:36

Exactly.

Candy 13:36

I love connecting dots.

Sandi 13:38

funny enough. I started my career in addictions. and dual diagnosis people with heavy trauma, mood disorders and addiction problems in the criminal justice system. So that's where I sort of learned those bones for that idea of, I'm only going to put in enough investment into the process as much as you do.

Candy 14:00

Right.

Sandi 14:01

And it's a, it's a back and forth. It's a, it's a symbiosis that needs to happen in the keeping things in balance.

Candy 14:08

Yes. I really love, I love what we're talking about with the modality not mattering as much because you pointing that out makes a lot of sense, not only in the rooms of sobriety, but also deep, meaningful friendships where, you know, If you're struggling with something super heavy, you can talk to a friend and work it out in lieu of therapy. I'm not saying that that therapy doesn't have its place or anything. I am all for therapy, but sometimes major things can be worked through with really close friends. And would that be the same kind of thing, just not on a professional level?

Sandi 14:53

I could buy into that.

Candy 14:55

Okay. Okay. And the only reason, sorry, go ahead.

Sandi 14:58

yeah, no, go ahead.

Candy 15:00

And the reason I say that is because this is coming from my personal point of view and having a lot of tools in my toolbox and working really hard at it. I Marco Polo friends. A lot. And that monologuing and talking about issues that I'm struggling with really helps me to work through it. And then, of course, getting feedback, but even just being able to talk to somebody that I am comfortable with that I know will understand what I'm going through because they've known me for so long, or they not even the time sometimes doesn't even matter. They vibe with me. They get it. And when I get feedback, I'm like, Oh shit, that totally makes sense. You know, um, so when you were talking about, you know, the relationship between patient and therapist, that's what it made me think of is, is it's the relationship that matters. It's the community that matters in, you know, the rooms, it's the friendship with. People that matters. Right. Oh, everything fucking comes down to connection.

Sandi 16:09

I know. I know. I just want to scream. It's the connection, stupid, you know, because at the end of the day, it really is. And if you have someone who responds to you in a way. that's not supportive, not validating, and not encouraging, and not helpful. You're not going to be able to get anything from that for yourself to move past that moment of pain or that, that gunk that kind of gets stuck in us sometimes.

Candy 16:38

Right. That it it's the dirt that gets in the cogs that keep them from Turning properly, you know, the yeah, gums, gums up the works.

Sandi 16:52

Yes, for sure. One of my, and I'll close with this before we move into some of the films that we want to discuss. But one of my favorite things to say in therapy to clients is, did you hear what you just said? And they go look around like, who me? Yeah, you, you're the only one here. What did you just say? And then they repeat it. And then most often it's followed by this very pregnant pause.

Candy 17:23

Right,

Sandi 17:24

the eyes sort of going wide, like, Holy shit. So, and I, and I sometimes tell clients, this is the lesson is that it's not about what I'm saying to you so much as what you're saying out loud to yourself and telling someone else the story. And there's so much wisdom to be gained from that inner self, that self that again, Jung talked about where everything that you need to heal is already there.

Candy 17:53

right. Ooh, I'm digging this topic.

Sandi 17:57

Yeah, a lot of fun. So to think of, I like to think of therapy generally as sort of a magical process. Where yes, we use evidence based tools where you know, oh, we've researched this and we know this works. Sure I'll take that but many times you have to work around in really individualized treatment to the particular person that you're working with

Candy 18:22

right.

Sandi 18:23

you have to adopt the style and you have to sort of mold yourself and you know, you're like the magical beastie who's like, Okay, well, I don't fit into this mold for this session and this person, so I have to be kind of a bit more this way, you know, and it's like moving something around and then you're like, Okay, it's in the perfect spot. Now take a snapshot of it. So there has to be this sort of clinical flexibility to do really good work with clients.

Candy 18:49

I love that. I love that. That is clinical flexibility,

Sandi 18:58

So that's a little bit about the word transformation and the theory behind that and how it equates to alchemy, which is the art of transformation. And so horror has a lot of, a lot of horror movies, like a lot, a lot, a lot of horror movies have themes of transformation moving from one state to another. Like I was immediately thinking of a couple of weeks ago, or maybe it was last episode where we discussed, um, in the mouth of madness. And then we jumped off to a couple of other films. And if I think about the thing, transformation is a literal shapeshifting from this taking over and usurping and parasiting off of this and then looking like that, but being completely different in nature.

Candy 19:50

right, right. So talking about movies, we were going to come up with some specific ones that talk about transformation. And I want to hear about what you brought, what you're bringing to the table.

Sandi 20:05

So I think several sessions ago, we talked about, or I had mentioned my love of revenge movies.

Candy 20:12

Yes, yes.

Sandi 20:13

And, there's a couple movies that come to mind that I have seen multiple times, and some horror fans are not going to like what I'm about to say, but the Suspiria remake. You and I watched that together at one point, right? And I love the original. I'm totally on board with the original. But this particular movie me salivate from the very bottoms of my teeth roots.

Candy 20:43

That is fabulous. I have a visual. It's great.

Sandi 20:49

And, and my husband has come in, that's a, that's a comfort movie for me. And my husband has come into the bedroom nights, probably seven at least. And come in and gone oh, you're watching this shit again. And I'm like, yes, I am

Candy 21:07

Some people don't get it, but the people who get it really understand why.

Sandi 21:14

and the thing I like about it is that and I can't I can't even remember. It's been a really rough week. Y'all. So if my memories a little shot, just, you know, forgive me the primary character. in there who's played by Dakota Johnson, who I think does a phenomenal job of transforming. And there are other characters that get transformed too, because the witches and the covens that are at war with each other are literally absorbing girls that are in their dance company. And it's crazy making this film is so gross and overtly graphic and the last scene with the undulating bodies doing a ritual that is supposed to bring about the change of guard and nominate this final witch to be in charge of the entire coven. And there's been sort of this infighting and war between, you know, three of two of the witches and they're voting for one person and then they're like, no, I'm voting for this person. And that end scene is the bloodiest, nastiest, goriest, amazing thing.

Candy 22:28

Yes.

Sandi 22:29

Dakota's character is just sitting there like, and she's holding her hands over her chest at one point and she starts to rip her chest open she's changing

Candy 22:41

Mm hmm.

Sandi 22:43

the last mother who shows up, who is always sort of called to her,

Candy 22:47

Right.

Sandi 22:48

when she was a little girl. And then it ties into this theme of like the transformation from daughter. And the character, her, she had a very conflictual, uh, relationship with her own mother

Candy 23:04

Right.

Sandi 23:05

was Amish and so she takes this sort of conflict of like not having a reliable mother, a mother that can show up for her. And then she finds a new mother Through the the person who runs the dance company who's played by the amazing Tilda

Candy 23:23

Mm. Swoon. Mm. Yeah.

Sandi 23:29

and that when she's holding out her chest and she's digging her fingers into her sternum And she's pulling her chest apart and she's got this look of ecstasy on her face I am the mother and it's this sort of cheesy almost like Like a 70s kind of porn vibe to her face and the blurriness of it. Like it's just such a wild fucking film and I just love it so much And I think part of the reason it appeals to me so much is because as a person who has childhood sexual trauma I was so very disempowered and

Candy 24:04

Yeah.

Sandi 24:04

this young girl be in a situation in a very extreme religion and be sort of dominated and have the thumb down on her of like, no, God wants you to do this and you can't do that. And you're a bad girl. And I mean, the mother's punishes her at one point by taking her hand and literally putting it on the stove on purpose and causing her terrible burns and terror and trauma. And so she's in this sort of very weak, weakened position and very vulnerable. And then she comes around and she's like, I am the mother. And I'm like, you are the motherfucker.

Candy 24:37

Mm.

Sandi 24:37

know, you can, you are going to eat these bitches. And she's like slicing heads off and I just get the biggest charge out of it. So that was one of my films that sort of. When we think of like a transformation, yes, what she's doing is destructive, but she also has empathy and compassion for the doctor at the end, the psychiatrist who has seen all this heinous shit. And he's and pleading for his life. And then she takes all of his horrible memories away and leaves him alone. And I can't remember the quote in it, but she says, shame is shame is necessary, but not for you. And so she takes all of his shame and all of his pain away from him and just like does a spell on him and leaves him in his bed and then he shudders and goes through his own little transformation and then he wakes up and he can't remember anything bad.

Candy 25:28

I need to watch it again. Yeah, you're describing it and, and I'm getting a kick out of rewatching all these movies through a different lens and seeing the psychology behind some of the actions, the thoughts, the deeds, you know, And did you have more you want to talk about with Suspiria?

Sandi 25:48

No, I think I'm done with that one. I mean, I could talk about that for days because I just love it so much. I want to estimate I've probably seen it 25 times.

Candy 25:58

Right, right. I, uh, you know, I was going to talk about Jacob's Ladder, but as we're going along with the conversation, I can't help but think of one of my other all time, they're all my all time favorites. The Devil's Advocate. That is a comfort movie for me. I fucking love that movie and I'm thinking about transformation and I'm like, there is a huge transformation in that, in Keanu Reeves character. And of course, because we're talking about, I know, I know his name. Kevin Lomax.

Sandi 26:38

Uh, Al Pacino's in it, right?

Candy 26:40

Al Pacino as the fucking devil. Oh my God. So Kevin Lomax is his name and he's this small time lawyer in Florida that has a 100% Uh, success as a defense attorney. That's right. He's a defense attorney. And it starts off with this case of this teacher that's behaving inappropriately, you know, with his students and one in particular. And, you know, there's a point in which he realizes that this guy actually did it, you know, and he has a moment. So he calls for a short recess. He goes into the bathroom and this is a point in which he decides whether or not he's going to go through with this. Is he going to really try to get this guy off so he can get off on small children, right? Or is he going to step away from the case? So he's sitting there, you know, there's a brief conversation with a friend who happens to be a journalist and he's looking at himself in the mirror and, he's going to do it. So, you know, he ends up, he ends up getting this guy off, um, barely and They're celebrating and he's approached by a big time lawyer who says, we'd like you to pick a jury for us. And he's like, at first he thinks it's a joke. Cause I mean, who am I, you know? Yeah, I've got a good success rate, but I'm this, like, nobody here in Florida. He's going to the big city, right? New York. So they fly him out. And they woo him and he is just, uh, soaking it all in like this is, this is like huge for him. This could be big. Right. And they end up finally giving him an offer that he picks the jury. They win the case, of course. And. He gradually climbs this ladder into being a like, he's a big deal, but his attitude changes. He starts. Ignoring his wife. He starts having impure thoughts. You know, he's around all these people that are very questionable in their morals and ethics. Okay and you see that from the get go. You know, there's no, there's no You Way about it. Like, you can tell something's off and the man that owns the, the law firm is played by Al Cipino, played by Al Pacino, who is fucking amazing in this movie. I love him in this movie and, you know, there's, there's clever banter and you can tell that this guy is just fucking slick. He is so slick. Uh, and, and, and he's the devil, of course, you know, so he's in what perfect role, you know, to own a fucking law firm and his name is, uh, Milton. And I can't help but to think that there's a, a correlation or some kind of homage to John Milton, Paradise Lost.

Sandi 29:57

yes,

Candy 29:58

know, I'm like, like that was one of the first things, because Paradise Lost is one of my favorite top five fucking pieces of literature. I love Paradise Lost so much. And Frankenstein's right up there too. And there's a parallel between the two of them.

Sandi 30:13

Yes, there sure is.

Candy 30:15

He's climbing this, this corporate ladder. Uh, he's making friends with all the people in this law firm. And meanwhile, his wife, you know, she's stuck at home. What is she doing? She's starting to hang out with, uh, friends, you know, the wives of these lawyers that Kevin is working with. And she is slowly starting to crumble, you know, her Her mental state, like she's not working. She's just being like a housewife and like, what is she supposed to do with herself? So anyway, it's like you have these two things he's going up. She's going down, you know, she's not getting the attention she needs So it's This transformation that comes over, uh, Keanu Reeves character is from this adorable, like, small time, yeah, he's a defense attorney, but we'll just let that pass, you know, cause he's got that cute accent and, you know, that handsome face. We can, we can deal with that. But now he's defending, like, actual, like, murder. And this is huge and it develops, you know, he knows that this guy did it and there's a whole bunch of other shit that starts happening. And then he realizes just how corrupt this law firm is that he's working for. And so, you know, we get. To the end, you know, the trial happens and his wife, she ends up killing herself. She can't handle this. She kills herself and it sends him over the edge and he is just like kind of like a wild fucking cannon here mentally and he's just going full bore on this case, you know, and he's realizing the things are actually, they're not just like corrupt, like normal corrupt, like there's something going on here. And so he has this conversation where he finds out that he is the son of this guy who just happens to be the double, you know, wooed his mom, a fucking church going lady. Right. And so the end though, the end of the movie, you know, he, Al Pacino has his monologue, his typical Al Pacino monologue, which he's fucking amazing at. And Keanu sitting there, he's, he's got this choice to make, like join the family, you know, join us. You're good at it. You know we kind of put these little steps along the way to help you get here. Welcome son, you know and he smiles. He's got, this is one of my favorite Keanu Reeves. Rolls. He smiles and he talks about, um, Oh, I can't remember what, what the line is. It doesn't matter. He's got to make a decision and he sits there and it's like the scene where he's staring at himself in the mirror at the very beginning. And what he ends up doing is he kills himself, ruining his dad's fucking plan. Right. But that's not the end. We catch him at the sink staring at himself from the beginning of the movie, and he makes a different decision having gone through everything that transpired after getting this guy off. Gettys was his name, the school teacher off, you know, and, and, and climbing this ladder into greatness or whatever he decides, you know, what can't do it. So he goes and he recuses himself. From the case and and it's huge and you get this fucking glimpse of Al Pacino stand in there and he's like vanity definitely my favorite sin or something like that, but the transformation from this small town guy to this big fucking deal. Well. It's, it's like there's a direct correlation between that climb in the outside world societally and the decline of his mental state. But in the process, there's some magic happening that the experience of going through all that shit, he realizes, hold on, I can't, I can't do this, I can't do this, you know, and so by experiencing all this shit it turns him into a better person. He, you know, he kills himself, but then, you know, it's the fucking devil. Like he does the little time thing and he's back in the fucking courthouse bathroom and makes a different decision. But he still has that experience that he went through and he is a transformed being in the end. And I'm like, that is a good fucking ending. I don't like happy endings. I love tragic endings, but that is a happy ending that I do like because he goes through the whole fucking thing. comes out the other side, like he had to literally kill himself. In order to go through that final transformation of his betterment.

Sandi 35:17

Yeah.

Candy 35:18

That felt like I rambled for a long time. I tried not to.

Sandi 35:22

Oh, it was great. I was transfixed and now I want to go watch the movie

Candy 35:26

Oh, it's so good.

Sandi 35:27

been, I haven't seen it since it came out and I have literally no memory about it.

Candy 35:31

So, yeah, that is, uh, Actually, one of my favorite themes in movies is the complete fucking breakdown of the psyche, having to, to kill our old selves off so that we can start fresh and that's what that, that movie for me is like the epitome of it. Of that whole process,

Sandi 35:54

Yeah, it's, I think it's just a theme that shows up because every human being is on a journey of a process of transformation

Candy 36:05

right? Mm-Hmm?

Sandi 36:07

we were born, you know, we're, we're a tiny little cell and then those cells continue to duplicate and then those cells produce a heart and a brain and kidneys and skin and fingernails and toesies and penises and vaginas and little buttholes. And then we turn into this newborn and then we turn into an infant. And then we turn into a little toddler who's sticking forks in light box holes and bitching about it because you won't let me do that. And then we're grade school. And so we aren't so on and so forth. And what I, what I find so often interesting about the idea that humans are always in flux and ever changing is that some people and this, not picking on generations here, but I'm going to say some of the older generations have an idea that they get to a certain adult age, and then it's just kind of cool and totally permissible to stop growing and changing.

Candy 36:58

Right? Oh my gosh, yes. I had an ex-boyfriend who told me that he was 55 years old. He, he's not gonna change. And I'm all,

Sandi 37:06

too old to change!

Candy 37:08

What? And then I've got an 83-year-old friend who is constantly working on changing himself. I'm like, fucking go. You dude. Yeah. Mm-Hmm.

Sandi 37:18

And so, and, and we, when we talk about like cycles of life development and, you know, over the lifespan development, we are meant to continue to change and metamorphosis, each and every time we hit sort of a new critical development period. And critical development periods are often associated with associated with like just childhood, you know, where you, you know, your brain is this literal sponge and you're building all these new neural pathways and you're learning new information, you take things in and you know, we've got three year olds who can learn new languages just like that at a snap of a

Candy 37:50

I know.

Sandi 37:50

little just hungry for it, right? you know, but you just said as a 40 something year old person earlier in today's episode about, I am thirsty for knowledge. I'm sucking this up like a sponge. And there are some people who get to a certain place in their life where they're like, I don't need to learn anything else. I don't need to be curious. And that's, that's not how we're wired. Right.

Candy 38:15

I would wholeheartedly agree.

Sandi 38:18

I'm not going to say we need to do massive shifts and changes, but to stay alive and be curious and be, you know, kind of mischievous and learn about new things and learn about new people. That is, that's sort of how we're wired to do it,

Candy 38:31

I agree.

Sandi 38:33

because if we weren't wired that way, why would we change from a newborn to an infant to a toddler to a school age kid?

Candy 38:42

Right. Right.

Sandi 38:44

doesn't stop just because we hit a certain age.

Candy 38:47

Correct. You know, and that's, I think, a large part of why there's this prevalence of Alzheimer's, dementia, those kinds of things. We're not, we as a society, you know, you know, we have machines that think for us. You know, and we don't have to memorize numbers anymore. We're not using, we're not keeping those neural pathways fresh. We're not building new ones. And the thing I think is really important to point out here that I have discovered in my own life is getting out there and doing things in order to transform. You have to have experience doing things. You have to go out there and do things, experience things, learn things, make new social connections, talk to people that are not your peers. That's a huge one. Talking to people that don't share your same points of view, ask questions. I am constantly asking why I feel like a toddler sometimes.

Sandi 39:47

Why?

Candy 39:47

exactly. But that's just, that's how my brain is wired. Like I'm all, I want to know how things work, you know, but

Sandi 39:55

same.

Candy 39:55

I wouldn't have the transformation, my own personal transformation that I've gone through. I wouldn't have it if I wasn't willing to put myself out there and ask the questions and experience things being willing to fall down on my face and learn how to pick myself up.

Sandi 40:13

Correct.

Candy 40:13

have any of that, I wouldn't be the awesome fucking individual that I am today.

Sandi 40:18

Yeah. Yeah. sort of like that, that theory of like, when we see characters turning into a vampire.

Candy 40:25

Mm hmm,

Sandi 40:26

and they've been bitten and then they're like dreading the, Oh God, you know, and then their physical body dies. And there's lots of movies that illustrate that point

Candy 40:35

yeah.

Sandi 40:36

as special effects

Candy 40:37

God, yes. I

Sandi 40:39

but the practical specs of special effects like American Werewolf in London, one of

Candy 40:43

fuckin love that one!

Sandi 40:45

the greatest werewolf transformation that has ever and will ever be, period, end of discussion, my opinion, argue with me like, but it, yes,

Candy 40:55

I have one comparable. I'm just saying.

Sandi 40:58

Do you let me

Candy 40:59

I truly, yeah.

Sandi 41:00

yeah, um, but that that idea of like the transformation of like a vampire or werewolf there's all this pain and there's this like

Candy 41:08

Mm hmm. Hmm?

Sandi 41:09

and the flesh is tearing and growth is uncomfortable it's just sort of a, an illustration of. how horror often deals with the pain that change and transformation can cause us as humans. And then we're turned into a vampire and we're like, game on, I don't give a shit anymore.

Candy 41:30

Fuck. Yeah.

Sandi 41:31

and I can go and live and have all these different experiences. And it's just this sort of way to conceptualize, like, You can be a vampire too. You don't have to die though and you don't have to get bit, but you can live that way. You can be curious about things. You can be excited about new things. You can go and delve into new universes or new languages or different countries and history and sort of read about things and just, the human mind is so expansive and endless that we are primed for transformation. But with the advent of technology, I We have taken some of that work away. So I really about like being curious versus I always say, be curious versus condescending.

Candy 42:14

Yes. Yes. Yeah. I love that.

Sandi 42:18

What's the movie?

Candy 42:20

It's a series and there is now you're talking about like special effects versus CGI. I do think that it has CGI hemlock grove.

Sandi 42:31

Oh my God. I knew you were going to say that. I fucking knew it. I was like, it's Hemlock Grove, isn't it? Yes.

Candy 42:36

It is.

Sandi 42:36

that

Candy 42:37

That was a really, really good fucking transformation. But yeah I would, I would put it up there, but American Werewolf in London, like, there's no, there's no comparison. So

Sandi 42:50

I mean

Candy 42:51

I'll let you have that

Sandi 42:52

I, I will still just like when that movie is available anytime on, you know, shutter, I think it's on shutter now, actually. I think I saw it just was added to the catalog, which I was super fucking stoked about. Um, so I will, I, whenever I see that movie, I will fast forward to that point so I can watch the transformation and I'm like, okay, I got my five minutes of, you know, special effects juju on, I'm like, Oh, thanks so much.

Candy 43:17

Yes. I love it so much. Great examples of transformation. Oh, yes.

Sandi 43:26

to think about all of the different movies that illustrate. change and transformation of either a character or sometimes entire towns. Like we should do something on that sometime about, I mean, like when we like go back to in the mouth of madness,

Candy 43:41

Hmm.

Sandi 43:43

of an entire town because there were written that way. You know,

Candy 43:47

Right. Yes, exactly. Oh my gosh, there's so much. We've got material for the rest of our lives.

Sandi 43:53

I know,

Candy 43:54

Buckle in, folks. Yes. Yes.

Sandi 44:00

of us, we probably have, I don't know, 20 pages of like topic after topic of stuff that we're like, Oh,

Candy 44:06

Right. Right. Yeah. Good

Sandi 44:08

good. Well, I think that's what we have for today. Do you have any closing thoughts or ideas or suggestions for people?

Candy 44:16

I've got to think about that for a second. Because I always say no. Um, I would say this. Take a look at your favorite horror movie or movies. that you go to over and over and over again and, take a look at it through a different lens of why it might be that you keep going back to that movie for you. What is the comfort in that? What, what is the draw? To the movie that keeps you coming back, even though, you know, the fucking outcome,

Sandi 44:53

Right.

Candy 44:55

you know, it's, it's fun to look at it from that different point of view and gives a whole other level of respect even like the devil's advocate. I'm like, fuck. Yeah, I'm going to rewatch that with a pen and paper and take notes. I'm really digging it.

Sandi 45:13

Yes. Yeah, I too am going to rewatch that. I know that I have a horror movie need in me tonight because that's mostly me every Friday and, and let's be honest, pretty much every night. Not that I always have time for it, but there's always something on in the background and especially this time of year,

Candy 45:29

Yes.

Sandi 45:31

Fucking time. The witching hour is upon us folks and it's about to get dark and spooky and witchy and bitchy and I'm totally here for it. And so my horror film consumption definitely goes up around this time, but it doesn't ever really stop. It just increases from a baseline of maybe already too much. what's excessive.

Candy 45:51

There's a big jump.

Sandi 45:53

It's a huge increase. So I think that, if I had to leave everybody with anything today, it would be sort of the same thing, like watch those films that you watch that you're really attracted to and you're like, Oh, I just love the special effects or whatever. Be curious about if there's a deeper resonance for you, because very often we will gravitate towards things that mirror something in our psyche that we've struggled with or that we've experienced. And sometimes the movies that we watch and those things we consume reflect that very innately, but we don't see it until we get kind of curious and start to think in deeper terms.

Candy 46:30

I love that. It's another sticker idea. Be curious.

Sandi 46:34

Be curious, not a condescending. Very good. Well, thanks so much for being with us today. We look forward to continuing our journey with you and we will see you next time.

Candy 46:48

Take care, folks!