The Cloaked Tatters

S1E10 Let's Talk About PTSD

• Sandra Labo

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Listen in on our discussion about PTSD. Who is affected, what do symptoms look like, and what do we need to do to become more aware. PTSD infects our bodies, minds, and souls, but healing is possible. Listen in and learn more! 

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Candy:

Hello everybody. And welcome. My name is Candy.

Sandi:

And I'm Sandi.

Candy:

And we are going to talk about PTSD today. I need to remember not to slam my hand on the table

Sandi:

ha ha ha ha ha. Okay. So as Candy introduced, we are going to talk about PTSD today and we are going to talk about a lot of the symptomology. we had tossed around the idea last week in preparation for this. What does it look like when people maybe have PTSD, but they haven't been diagnosed or they're not aware that they have trauma or potentially PTSD? in my practice, that's something I come across all day long. being primarily a trauma therapist, I have a magnet somewhere in my body that attracts those clients to me. and nine times out of ten, they will show up with a previous diagnosis of depression, maybe a previous diagnosis of an anxiety disorder of some sort. sometimes they're on meds, sometimes they're not, but they've described their symptoms often to a PCP or another prescribing medical provider in such a way that they're like, Oh, okay, well, it sounds like you have depression. It sounds like you have anxiety. So I'm going to prescribe you an SSRI. or a short term course of Xanax if we're having anxiety disorders that are really interfering, maybe causing panic attacks or panic disorder, which is essentially we're panicking about panicking. So people will show up with these, right? I know we were all like, yes, been there.

Candy:

Yep.

Sandi:

next one going to fucking happen? So we'll, we'll get to a place in treatment where I start doing like the clinical interview and sort of assessing what I'm seeing and what I'm hearing. And nine times out of ten, underneath the depression or the anxiety will be some sort of traumatic event or some sort of trauma. Most of the time, and I want to say all of the time, but most of the time when I'm lucky enough to get folks like this, it's, it's, Often severe childhood trauma and they have never been told by a provider or someone that you likely have PTSD because of blah blah blah what happened in your life we start unpacking that I very quickly go in my head to the Rolodex that keeps all the diagnosis criteria packed in there. So we start to unpack everything that's in there. And what we're seeing a lot of is the symptoms are interfering with daily life. They're interfering with someone's ability to care for themselves or care for other people. Sometimes children, sometimes a partner, sometimes pets. And there's a lot of avoidance. There's a lot of re experiencing of some of the sort of like projection idea that when something bad happens to us it sort of resonates and lives in our body and then it lives in our limbic system and then one trigger that's completely unrelated in regular human life can trigger a whole cacophony of all of that. So it's sort of like it just explodes. So some of the things, and I'm just going to read several of these. So the re experiencing is like flashbacks. remember a time when, oh, and then it connects and then we have the big,

Candy:

Mm hmm.

Sandi:

very much like panic and anxiety symptoms.

Candy:

Oh yeah.

Sandi:

dreams, nightmare activity, dreaming about and bringing with you from your nighttime subconscious activity into your morning life where you wake up and you're like, I want to punch this person in the face and I'm so I'm so distressed. I can't stop crying. Memories of thoughts that you had, memories of people, people that didn't either protect you or people that directly harmed you, and then often just physical signs of distress. Clenching of the fists, holding our bodies really tight, shoulders are up in our ears,, sweating, you know, high heart palpitation, feeling just really sort of jittery and out of control. So those are sort of the re experience things. The avoidance pieces is literally avoiding that which stimulates or reminds you of a situation,

Candy:

oh my god.

Sandi:

a person, and sometimes the trigger that you experience is, is you shut down and so you're now avoiding just being present and mindful of where you're currently at. And that can be really Yeah, that can be extremely scary for folks.

Candy:

Yeah.

Sandi:

arousal and

Candy:

Man.

Sandi:

reactivity symptom bucket, easily startled, feeling tense around the edge

Candy:

Oh my god

Sandi:

problems with concentration and attention. You'll read a chapter of a book and then you're like, I just drawn a blank.

Candy:

You know how many books I have had to read and reread because I just, I, I can't. I, I, I don't, I've gotten better, but, oh, all of this, like, makes so much sense. I'm seeing myself. Checking a lot of boxes here.

Sandi:

As it goes, right? Um, the sleep problems, not being able to fall asleep, falling asleep, but not being able to stay asleep, waking up through the middle of the night for what you feel is no reason. And interestingly enough, and we'll just, I'll do a little tie in of like horror stuff. A lot of times in horror movies, when bad stuff goes down, at three o'clock in the morning.

Candy:

The witching hour. Oh

Sandi:

so many people have reported to me, I always wake up around three o'clock it doesn't matter what time they went to bed. If it was two hours before it was six hours before they're like, why, what's it about three o'clock? And I'm like, it's sort of one of those weird things that people, a lot of times with sleep problems, wake up at about the same time.

Candy:

shit.

Sandi:

I'm

Candy:

Cause we're all being haunted by cucuys.

Sandi:

Yeah, and I'm sure that there's more sleep science that would support that as far as the REM cycles and how that all works. That's not my total bag of tricks, so I don't, I'm not going to pretend I know about all of that, but it is an interesting coinkydink. Um, and the movie that makes me think of that is, uh, The Exorcism of Emily Rose. Because the attorney keeps waking up at three o'clock in the morning and then things are going off in the hallway and somebody's knocking and opening her door and she's just like, what the fuck? And then she tells the priest about it. And of course, you know, we will need an exorcism because of course we do. Um, and it was a great, it was a great movie. Other, some of the other things, irritability. anger, aggression.

Candy:

oh my gosh

Sandi:

We talked a lot about reactivity last week

Candy:

Yep. these

Sandi:

symptoms sometimes I feel like are sort of underneath the surface, but we're not maybe able to make a full assessment on somebody shows up and they're like, I'm angry and I'm irritable and I'm pissed off all the time. And, uh, Doing impulsive things or destructive things. Well, that sounds like a behavior disorder, but it can also be trauma symptoms.

Candy:

Right. Oh

Sandi:

I know. Okay, a few more. Risky behaviors. Sometimes those are sexual in nature. Sometimes they involve your own person with self harm, cutting behaviors. Sometimes they involve other people being inappropriate physically and inappropriate touching and issues of sort of just general impulsivity. like, Again, what we talked about last week, that just reaction piece of like, something happens and blah blah blah blah blah, and you're like, whoa,

Candy:

Mhm. Oh my gosh. I'm feeling called out here.

Sandi:

right, well, and I'm calling myself out too, because I've, yeah, I mean, all these are familiar to me as well, um, and maybe not for each of them to the severity, but everyone's path looks a little bit different, right?

Candy:

hmm.

Sandi:

Um, memory issues. Memory issues are huge.

Candy:

Yep.

Sandi:

And do we want to talk about why? Do you have an opinion on why memory issues are such a problem for us?

Candy:

Well, I mean, in this context, I may not know exactly what you're alluding to, but in general, so many different things affect memories. If we remember something different or we tell ourselves a certain story, that is how we remember it, and that is the truth for us, whether or not it happened. Uh, but in this context, like, what are you. You elaborate on what you were getting at.

Sandi:

Sure. Um, memory issues are very common with especially things that happen in childhood. And our brain shuts down and the limbic system is sort of in over hyper drive and its job is to protect the body. So it will kind of shut off. And we do the little power down and dissociation. You said the D word earlier that happens. And so most of the time when I interview people with big time childhood trauma or even little childhood trauma, sometimes a whole series of them, like sort of ongoing, um, they, they're like, I don't, I can't tell you, I don't remember. And that makes my brain

Candy:

Oh

Sandi:

What happened in childhood that we're protecting from.

Candy:

Oh That happens with me all the time. I'll be having a conversation with my sister She'll be talking about something and it may not be even a traumatic event And i'll be like I have no idea what you're talking about and she'll be like, what? You don't remember? I'm like, bitch, I remember other things other not so fucking pleasant things in great vivid detail But I don't remember this happy moment that you're speaking of Yeah, all the time. There's these big Fucking holes in my brain and I'm like what the hell happened between Here and here. I have a no idea

Sandi:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Candy:

and I never will

Sandi:

Yeah, super, super common. ongoing sort of negative thoughts and feelings either about yourself, about other people, about being in relationship with people, about people sometimes you've never met. So like when I see somebody, Watching, this is just sort of a superficial thing, but it's like when you see somebody who's on the internet and they've watched something and then they're in their, in the comments section, they'll start going and going and going and going and they start to add all these embellishments in and you're like, um, I don't know what you watched, but that's not what I got. And where are you getting that information from? So sometimes as a clinical person online, I look at folks and I'm like, are you sure there's nothing going on extra with you that you haven't dealt with? And what happened to you to cause you to say, really horrible, awful things about other people that you don't know, you've never met and you have zero connection to beyond what you learned in this video. That was literally four minutes long.

Candy:

right. Well, we are so good at composing narratives and just run and we take that football and we run Run to the end of the field and beyond all the time,

Sandi:

I know, I know. So that, that to me sometimes is like, what happened? I'll think to myself, what happened to this person in the course of watching that video that Triggered them to remember something or someone that did something to them that perhaps was heinous or ugly or criminal or

Candy:

right?

Sandi:

that scarred them and hurt them so much that now they're lashing out and projecting it onto this person

Candy:

Yes an association. Oh Man, thanks Pavlov

Sandi:

I know chompy chompy dogs at the bell.

Candy:

Ting ting ting ting ting

Sandi:

So along with the negative feelings and thoughts package, blame, shame, embarrassment, feeling unworthy, feeling not ever good enough. Even though you have people in your life telling you, I love you, you're the best, you're awesome. You know, you're my person. I love you. Sometimes those things fall on deaf ears when we've been really traumatized.

Candy:

stop it. Ugh. I don't think I ever made that connection with my personal trauma and the feeling of not being good enough or unworthy. Ugh. Gross. Gross.

Sandi:

Yeah, it is. It is really gross for us to feel that way. And what that's about is A lot of the time is when somebody has gotten close enough to hurt us harms us. And then when somebody who really does love us and means us no harm gets close to us, we go, No, thank you. Push you over there because they're coming to you with openness and love saying I can handle what you have I'm here for you. And then you turn around and go well fuck that I can't trust that because guess what the

Candy:

Oh my god.

Sandi:

right? I knew that was probably gonna get you because I'm watching you and I'm like, oh shit Are you okay?

Candy:

Oh my gosh. So many times and even just recently, and, and we'll talk, we can talk about that. You know, later on.

Sandi:

Super called out. other things, loss of interest, socially isolating, because again, if somebody we trusted or was in a position of trust over us and they hurt us irrevocably and with punition, we don't now trust the next person in line who says, I care for you. I won't harm you. Let me get close to you.

Candy:

Right.

Sandi:

So there's also, um, difficulty with feeling positive emotions. So when we have been traumatized and people have hurt us, we often are very resistant to thinking that. Life can be good and hopeful and happy, and we can have fun and be safe doing that.

Candy:

Wow. Huh. Okay.

Sandi:

And a couple of other things that I feel are important to mention, according to statistics, women are more likely than men to develop PTSD. And this is not the time or place to have a longer discussion about it, but I have some opinions on this. And I think that because when I worked in the prison system, Men tend to externalize their stuff, whatever's going on with them. Women tend to internalize. And, like, we went through the Me Too movement, and all these women came up with, the legions of women came up with stories about how they were assaulted, how they were inappropriately touched, how they had thumbs down on them in the workplace and other environments because of being a woman. And then when that happens, sometimes we don't just have one story, we have a repetitive narrative of

Candy:

right.

Sandi:

And so then when we talk about it and we say, Hey, me too, this happened to me and people don't believe us. That can also shut down the externalizing, the sharing, the learning how to cope, the having people to trust with your story. So, and also women are often more victims of violent crime. than men.

Candy:

Right. I mean, it makes sense. It makes sense. Of course, my brain is like, Well, I need to see some hard science behind those statements, um, but no, I like it totally because now I, my brain goes to the, um, societal aspect of that because women have been taught be more accepting of their emotional side and men repress kind of thing. Gotcha.

Sandi:

men can at the same time repress big emotion, but yet at the same time simultaneously act out and externalize their angst, their anger, their frustration, their fear,

Candy:

Mm hmm. Right.

Sandi:

And, and sometimes that's a, I mean, that's a whole different episode. Because there's a ton to that. And what, what I think is something that needs to be said about PTSD generally is that not everyone who has trauma will develop PTSD and not everyone who has PTSD is going to respond or have the same symptomology than the next person that has PTSD because A, we all have different variables of biology. Um, how we're raised in community, families, churches, you know, that kind of thing. And we all have different levels of distress tolerance because of all of this so, and, and again, we could, we could go ad nauseum for hours on what those things are that contribute to somebody being more likely to develop PTSD. opposed to having a little bit of trauma that that they can work past and work through and it doesn't necessarily affect their daily life for a long period of time and they can get past it.

Candy:

Right.

Sandi:

And

Candy:

This is so complex.

Sandi:

yeah, it's very complex. And I, I think that again, we gave you a ton of those symptoms, right? Of what we look for when we're diagnosing PTSD or complex PTSD, which isn't even in the DSM yet, which pisses me off to no end.

Candy:

I know. I know. How long do we have to wait until they publish another one and then maybe accept that as a diagnosis?

Sandi:

Yeah. I think that everybody who is a human will experience something or other that is traumatic across the span of their life. I am, I am, there's nothing that can sway me to think another way about that, but does it necessarily develop into PTSD or does it develop into other disorders because like some of the co occurring disorders that we have when we have a diagnosis of PTSD are very often major depressive disorder. generalized anxiety disorder, panic disorder, OCD, ADHD, ADD and, and, uh, you know, occupational defiant disorder, uh, not occupational defiant disorder, um, uh, defiant, like defiant disorders, the ones that we diagnose in childhood where we're like, why is this kid acting out and low? Why is he doing all this

Candy:

Ah.

Sandi:

Well, what the hell is happening in that kid's home?

Candy:

Right,

Sandi:

that is helping to sort of encourage those symptoms. Are they modeling after a

Candy:

huh,

Sandi:

parent who's dong the same things? there's a that goes into this. So, it's not cut and dried. It's very complex. And not everyone's going to experience the same things. Or have, or their trauma's not going to manifest in the same ways that other Joes might manifest it like.

Candy:

right. Sorry about the blank stare. I was going to say something and I totally forgot what it was I was going to say. Outtake.

Sandi:

Remember the memory issues we just talked about? Cheers.

Candy:

Oh my god. I have so much to say about all this stuff. My trauma has been the last thing on my, my list, my imaginary list of shit that I know I need to take care of to address, to be healthier. in here. Uh, and so it's like, it's fresh for me because I got, the therapist that I was seeing gave me a really cool book and, um, of course I'm not gonna remember the name of it, but it's CPTSD, Literature and Accompanying Workbook, which was super helpful into really digging in and figuring out what, what's going on up here and why.

Sandi:

I think, I think there's a big misconception also in the treatment of trauma, that we have to do specific modalities that are designed just for trauma. Like DBT is for borderline personality disorder, DBT skills, as you know, work for everyone.

Candy:

We need to learn that shit in kindergarten, y'all.

Sandi:

I know, I know. We're teaching mindfulness. We're teaching interpersonal communication. We're teaching distress tolerance. We're teaching kids to

Candy:

Yeah,

Sandi:

Oh, well, when Johnny comes over and knocks my blocks over every fucking morning, when my mom drops me off, I don't like that. and guess what? I'm going to tell you, I don't like that. And the next time you do it, I'm going to take a block and I'm going to go knock your shit over. And,

Candy:

naturally.

Sandi:

that's not the best cure for everything, but there, there was this amazing, um, uh, Soraya Chemaly. She's written pretty extensively on, trauma response. I can't remember exactly what her bag of tricks is, but she made a video one time and it was how I was introduced to her through a YouTube video. And she used the example of, I used to drop my daughter off at daycare and every day this little boy, she would build this nice little thing with blocks or some other implement. And he would come over immediately, wait for her to be done, and then knock them over. And his parents giggled. And the teacher was like, Oh, you know, no big deal, blah, blah, blah. And, and this woman is sitting

Candy:

Oh no,

Sandi:

I think my kid is being targeted by this kid. And why are we putting up with this shit? And why are we laughing about it?

Candy:

right, right,

Sandi:

Rather than teaching empathy and saying, no, this behavior is not okay because this is

Candy:

right.

Sandi:

of interaction that's negative because of what this little boy is doing every day. Somebody needs to tell him, how would you like it if somebody came over and did the same thing to you? Would you like that? More, more than likely he would say no. And she went on this whole sort of tie. Oh, it's women in anger, women in rage. That's her,

Candy:

Ah, okay. Okay.

Sandi:

wheelhouse. And as an enraged woman for many years myself, I really loved her work. and got really like, rage becomes her was the book and it was

Candy:

Uh, write that down. Rage becomes her.

Sandi:

details in one of these things where she comes home one day, she's a young girl, I think it's probably an adolescence. And she tells the story of her mother and she hears this crashing and she walks through the house. and she goes into the backyard and she sees her mother taking the wedding china piece by piece and chucking it and breaking it. And she was like, Oh, what is happening here? And so through some of this

Candy:

Right,

Sandi:

she talks about like why women are like that sometimes. And why? Because we're asked to repress those. If we externalize, Versus a man externalizing, something's really wrong with us and we're very emotional, but when men do it, so, it's interesting.

Candy:

And, and now we have those, the rooms. What are they called?

Sandi:

Rage rooms.

Candy:

Rage rooms! Yeah! Yeah! You can go and break shit in a socially acceptable environment and nobody, or you could throw a fucking axe. Like, really cool that, that Whether it's intentional or not, people are making these activities socially acceptable so that there is some kind of outlet to get some of the things out.

Sandi:

Yeah. it's so much better than trying to run people over on the highway or, you know, shooting people. Like, I know people

Candy:

Right. Right.

Sandi:

their intention is not to harm anybody, but they get off on shooting the shit out of a target. They feel empowered and strong and rife with the manliness, you know,

Candy:

Right. Right.

Sandi:

to have a constructive, productive, healthy outlet to do pew pew or race car driving, you know, or some of the people that I know who do MMA and wrestling and boxing. They're like, I go in there with my opponent

Candy:

Yeah.

Sandi:

an audience to beat the fucking tar out of people and each other. And now it's a sport. You know, so and have, have a productive outlet as opposed to just going out and in society and being, being willy-nilly with it. But that's where that awareness piece comes in. Do I have things that I'm harboring and holding inside and repressing that really I do a whole lot better in my life and my relationships and as a person, if I just found a way to let it out.

Candy:

I think I had some of that as a kid when I would go, like, out riding bikes and stuff, just getting that Grrrr! Energy out in some socially acceptable manner, because it's not okay to punch things.

Sandi:

So I'll just kind of close up with my spiel and then I really want to hear from you about how some of the things we've already talked about today sort of hit you and what it reminds you of for your journey because I think that that's really fantastic stuff that helps other people to go, Oh, it's not just me. As far as like from protocol, there are treatment protocols that are evidence based for For trauma therapy, but EMDR is not going to work for everyone Going and having electrodes put stuff on your head is not going to work for everyone Some people do EMDR and they've done, you know, lots and lots of it and they're like I still feel awful. And sometimes it's about that treatment matching piece is really about knowing your client,

Candy:

yeah,

Sandi:

after in life, knowing where they've been, having them, having you learn about them as a person, a whole person, not just the aspects where their life has become problematic. And so I'm a big fan of let's sit down and talk about it and keep talking about it because what happens a lot of times is that the more we tell the story and the more we have a trusted witness for our story. The more it becomes less emotionally charged for us. And then to like, you know, Jungian theory, we're integrating that into our lives and into a part of our story and our history that doesn't define us and doesn't run us, but yet is a part of us and what makes us our whole self.

Candy:

right. Ugh,

Sandi:

I know.

Candy:

this is such a, it's such a complex, no pun intended, subject.

Sandi:

Yeah,

Candy:

Because, I mean, now, like I know from a personal point of view all the things that I have dealt with, but to have you list them out, and I didn't even write down all the shit that I matched up with, and it's most of it. Honestly, it's most of it. And, you know, I got, like, most from every little category and I'm like, God, I'm really fucked up, you know? Well, not anymore. I'm like, I've done, I've done work. I'm not as fucked up. Um,

Sandi:

can look at it and go, that fucked me up.

Candy:

yes, so much. And, and I used to, I mean, there were so many times, and sometimes I'll still get in this state, but I can get myself out of it much easier, where I will, you know, I will sit and I will cry because of how much this seemingly small period of time in my life affected everything. It affected it exponentially, you know? Uh, a snowball effect, whatever frickin metaphor you want to use. It's, it's like, you know, when you're stacking something, And you just, if there's a hair, you're stacking bricks. And if there's a hair under one, you keep stacking. By the time you get up here, it's fucking leaning like this, you know? And then the slightest thing, boom, and it's a fucking mess,

Sandi:

Right.

Candy:

you know? And that's, that's kind of what it feels like trauma is like is, you know, you get those bricks knocked down and you're like, well, fuck, okay, so I'm going to rebuild those and I'm going to stack them. But that little. That little bump, that little hair, whatever the fuck that dirt is,

Sandi:

Yeah.

Candy:

that's there, and sometimes for people it's bigger, sometimes it's smaller, but it doesn't matter the size, because you stack up to here, it's still freaking leaning, and the right thing is gonna make it fucking tip over, and you gotta start all over again, and it's like, Therapy is, is like sanding that smooth, sanding that away or removing the debris so that you are building yourself on a solid, unblemished, uh, foundation. You know? That was a good metaphor on the fly. I'm very proud of myself for that.

Sandi:

As you were talking, I

Candy:

It's like having a fucking

Sandi:

No, it's great. As you were talking, I was getting the metaphor in my head of a really long, raggedy fingernail that really needs to be clipped and it's got like a chip here and a chip here and one's happening right at the base of the nail bed where you're like, I know I'm going to lose that and it's just going to rip off and it's going to be so painful. But in order to get down to it, We have to start shaving a little bit off of each side and make it smooth instead of so rough. So it's not catching on everything and literally catching us up in the web of trauma and those responses. So the more like you're right, there's more, we can smooth things out and sort of be in control of it. And, and most of the time, like, I think the thing that's really helpful is that people don't understand what's going on with them.

Candy:

Right.

Sandi:

A lot of times I hear, I feel like I'm a crazy person. I felt like a crazy person. You felt like a crazy person.

Candy:

Yes, I did.

Sandi:

Trauma makes you crazy,

Candy:

Mm hmm. Right.

Sandi:

and you understand what you're dealing with, most of the time, just telling patients, look, here's the list of things, just like you had the experience, here's the list of things that are sort of the diagnosis for PTSD. you checked all those boxes and they go, Oh, and a lot of times there's a lot of tears and a lot of relief at just

Candy:

Yeah.

Sandi:

That this is something that they can take a hold of and they can learn how to make better and

Candy:

Right.

Sandi:

weepy Because that's like at the core of my work

Candy:

yes. It's like, oh my god, this is what's driving my behavior. This is why. Ah, that's so important. So, I want to talk about the list. I wrote some things down that really struck me as you were going through these different categories of what, uh, PTSD looks like. What trauma looks like, how it presents itself. And what did it look like for me before I even knew what trauma was before I even knew that I had trauma. I'm turning red. I'm getting a hot flash over here. Uh, it's a spicy subject,

Sandi:

I know.

Candy:

subject. So like the things that come to mind that I didn't even need you to read the list, like, was anger. A lot of unchecked anger. And that, of course, would turn into anxiety because if I wasn't in a place where I could punch something, know, I'd have to just keep it inside and all that energy has to go somewhere and it would inevitably turn into anxiety and then that would make me a very unpleasant person to be around. And this was up through my 20s. You know, and you know, I joke now about the chicken soup incident with my youngest kiddo this was like one of the worst moments in my life that stands out where where one of my kiddos had to endure the result of This anxiety that I didn't know was anxiety at the time, you know, she opened a can of chicken noodle soup kitchen counter What's wrong with that? Nothin except for my phone was layin there. And, she kinda lost control of the soup. It spilled a little bit all over the face of my phone. And I lost my shit. I yelled at her, and I said the one thing that it's don't wanna ever say Say to my kids like, what is wrong with you? What were you thinking? That kind of shit. Oh my God. Like, and we've talked about it and worked through it, and I, I've made amends about it and, and I ask her, I'm like, do you still have long lasting issues resulting, you know, and you know, maybe she probably does,

Sandi:

Yeah.

Candy:

it was. It was things like that that would happen all the time and it's a lack of control, you know, and it's my it's it's spinning out of Uh, it's spinning a story out of this one incident like well, I can't afford to fucking replace this So then i'm going to be without a phone and then i'm not going to be able to be in contact with just That whole thing and the anxiety just ramping up.

Sandi:

Yeah. Yeah.

Candy:

That was like one of the biggest things for me was anger so much anger

Sandi:

Well, and yeah, for sure. What you just described was the anger triggered by the startle response triggered by an accident that could happen to anyone.

Candy:

I know it's so embarrassing to talk about well I don't get that embarrassed anymore because I understand where it came from and it wasn't like intentional

Sandi:

But I'm sitting here thinking in my head, like when you made one little error growing up and you were being groomed and abused, you made one small error, really bad things would happen. And that probably included spilling

Candy:

they would I used to catch shit for not enunciating properly. People tell me that I'm so good at reading aloud, like in my meeting I'll read from the 12 and 12 or whatever I'm reading and I love reading aloud. It's a passion and people are like, Oh, you read so well. And I'm like, yeah, well, you know, I had to fucking suffer the consequences if I didn't enunciate properly. Like I had to say Refrigerator, Refrigerator, or Hanger, not hanger. Fuck you, dude! Like, especially after taking linguistics, I'm like, Dude,

Sandi:

Yeah. No.

Candy:

yeah, so it totally makes sense. That, and I didn't even actually put those two things together until you just said it. There are so many, like, so many things. Um, oh my gosh, another big category that you mentioned was the risky behaviors. And Lots of sexual risk taking.

Sandi:

Yes.

Candy:

Lots! Like, I can't believe some of the situations that I put myself in, you know? Oh my god, I think about it and I and I get so embarrassed and I, ugh. But again, like the chicken soup, like I understand now what I was doing, but oh man, like, I'm like, I can't fucking believe I did that or I can't believe I did him, you know? That kind of shit!

Sandi:

right, right,

Candy:

You know? Oh my god.

Sandi:

you know, as well as I do, because I, we've talked about our own stories together, you know, off air, um, it's nothing to be ashamed of because we,

Candy:

Oh yeah.

Sandi:

groomed to be a certain way. And then we get into the sphere of other people and they're like, why are you doing all these crazy things? And you're like, but I thought that was normal.

Candy:

Right.

Sandi:

What's wrong

Candy:

Right. Well, you know, now I can just say that I'm very experienced. I'm changing that fuckin narrative.

Sandi:

right. That's right. That's right. Absolutely.

Candy:

And then, and then, the other huge thing, probably the biggest thing that, you didn't mention this directly, but the lack of boundaries.

Sandi:

Yes.

Candy:

The lack of boundaries. It was huge for me. It's only been Uh, probably, maybe ten years. There's a cat in the background.

Sandi:

Ting, ting, ting, ting.

Candy:

But the ten years, yeah, where I have learned boundaries and I'm still learning how to respect my own boundaries, but I didn't, I didn't learn those boundaries until I joined, until I became a part of the BDSM community. You know, I found a partner that was into BDSM and he's like, well, I need a list of your boundaries. What he asked me for didn't even register. I didn't understand what he meant.

Sandi:

Yeah.

Candy:

And, and, and I had to have this person explain to a grown ass adult what boundaries were. And I, and I understand it now, and I wasn't really that embarrassed back then, but I'm like, holy shit. Like, I've got, I've got no fucking boundaries. You know? Ugh! And it just blew my mind and of course the boundaries have developed over time. Like, not just kink boundaries, but like, hey, if you can't respect calling me by Candy because I don't identify with the name that I was given at birth, fuck off. You know?

Sandi:

sure. Yeah.

Candy:

I don't need, I don't need that negativity in my life.

Sandi:

that's right. That's right. Throw it directly in the trash. that is such a byproduct. And that would, that would to me would fall under the category of risky, reckless, and impulsive behaviors. Right? Because that now we're allowing things to happen and the same thing happened to me. Um, one of the, one of the outcroppings of symptoms that is so common with women who have been sexually abused, especially as they've been abused as children, and that's their first experience um, hypersexuality.

Candy:

Oh, yeah. Yeah, I went there.

Sandi:

Me too. I know. And you're like, that was the worst thing that we could be doing because essentially we're just retraumatizing ourselves in those scenarios.

Candy:

I know! Yeah! Oh, yeah.

Sandi:

Yeah, we're like, uh, uh,

Candy:

yep. So going back to the chicken noodle thing, you know, that was very indicative of how my interpersonal relationships went. You know, I was a ticking time bomb ready to go off at the littlest thing, you know, uh, some of the other things, one of the biggest things that I had to work on with exposure therapy before I even knew what that was, was the avoidance because Rob is a machinist,

Sandi:

Uh huh. Uh huh. Uh huh. Uh

Candy:

the smell of the machines and oil and all that was very prevalent. I could not walk into an auto parts store without being triggered by the smell. And even, even now, it will trigger me, but I'm like, I know I'm safe, like I'm fine, even if that motherfucker was standing five feet in front of me, I would be safe. But it took a long time before I was even able to set foot inside. An auto parts store or another machine shop though. I don't know if I ever set foot inside of one, but that was that was like huge and What else? Oh the other the other thing that I really wanted to talk about was the self harm and the cutting thing now I and I have expressed this and I think I've talked to you about this and I think we should do another episode talking about this kind of thing is I didn't engage in, I don't know what to call it, traditional cutting, you know, with the lines, whatever, on the leg, whatever. I went the colorful route. I, it was, it was the pain, it was the pain of the tattoos to get out the emotional connection. It just, and, and it goes, going back into the kink thing, that's the whole thing with flogging too. Like, I, I wasn't able to Express my feelings. I didn't know how. And so I would vicariously do it by way of pain, you know, or use the pain to break me down enough to cry. Although the tattoos didn't do that. That's more of the flogging thing. So that I could, ugh, like purge that shit. But yeah, the cutting thing really, It resonates with me on sort of like a cousin of cutting with the whole tattoo thing. And I've talked to other people about that. Any body modification, you know, my freaking nose rings, you know, my Monroe, all that, I feel like is under a similar category

Sandi:

it is. It is. Yeah. And, and again, it's this idea about you're in control of your body. You're in control of what's happening to your body. You're making the choice. It's not up

Candy:

Yep, right.

Sandi:

I fully sanction it.

Candy:

Therapist sanctioned tattoo therapy.

Sandi:

I mean, I've had clients who, who, in order to sort of relieve the, the cutting, um, I've had clients, we, we, we don't want to take it away all at once because sometimes that's too much distress and we don't have other things to fill it in instead of

Candy:

Right.

Sandi:

I've encouraged people to take a pen draw really hard lines. on their skin.

Candy:

I like that.

Sandi:

And that's been helpful to sort of help harm reduction, right?

Candy:

Right. Right.

Sandi:

who have drawn on their skin and they push so hard or they use a very pointy ink pen that they can actually drag through the skin and that, that's a risk of course. But

Candy:

Yeah.

Sandi:

people harm reduce against themselves and then at the same time we're working on cognitive and behavioral and spiritual ways to find yourself worthy and find yourself beautiful and no need to scar yourself. to harm yourself. We work together up those ladders and then people start to go, I don't need that anymore.

Candy:

Right. I always need my tattoos, though. saying.

Sandi:

sure. And I'm not saying against that, but like people, I have known people and not necessarily clients, but I have read about and know people who have tattooed over the scars that they've left on their body. a way to take ownership and as a way to say I had to self harm and that's how I was coping and now I have so many other skills that I'm going to mark that as a constant reminder to myself that this served a purpose, but I don't need to do that anymore. And now I ink it on my body permanently, which is

Candy:

I like that.

Sandi:

thing.

Candy:

Yeah, yeah, that's great. I want to hear, I've been talking a lot about my own, traumatic responses as a kid and before I had therapy and sobriety, and I would love to hear about what some of yours were.

Sandi:

Well, you and I are a little matchy matchy, for better or for worse the anger piece and the hyper sexuality piece. And if not full on sex, it was just needing to, because I was groomed to look a certain way and behave a certain way, during sexual, rape and molestation and to be a certain there's like that term, like the, the pillow princess. You know, I'm supposed to lay there, you know, completely subdued and submissed without moving and present myself in such a way that like everything looks perfect and centerfoldy and like, yeah, and just that took me a long time to realize that I don't have to do that. with my partner. I don't need to do that. I can show up in my scuzzy sweats and haven't washed my hair in three days and it's toppled on top of my head. And he's like, I love you regardless. And is,

Candy:

Right, right.

Sandi:

Sure. It's fun. But it ha, it was a trigger for me to feel like I had to present

Candy:

Mmhmm.

Sandi:

myself and prepare myself. And I just get kind of heebie jeebie creepy all over just thinking and talking about it. Cause it was really, gross because an adult man was doing that to me

Candy:

Yeah, right.

Sandi:

and that gave me a complex about my body, about how I showed up in the world, how I dressed. Um, you know, I had, I had, I definitely had a hoe period and nothing against ho's, totally fine, but I had a ho period that wasn't my ownership. It was a way to kind of keep myself in this sort of expected role that was very oppressive and stifling to my actual development. So yeah, we've got some of that hypersexuality acting out too. Um, the anger was also a big one for me. It was not pretty. I was so defensive at 17, 18, 19, 20 years old, and it took me, and even at that point I had not recognized that what I had just been through, even while I was dating other people, was, had damaged me in the way that it did. I did not, I did not have awareness of that

Candy:

Mmhmm.

Sandi:

I just thought, Oh, that was a relationship because that's what I was told over and over and over again for six years and five years and, and it just, it, it, it made me, very defensive. And I remember one time I was driving. around, um, Arapahoe community college. And they were doing, construction on this one area of the road. And I turned into the road and realized it couldn't go any further. And in realizing that had to make a Uey in the street, you know, like three points of like back up, turn around, back up, go forward, because the road had been kind of narrowed down. And there was this entire construction crew of grown ass men. And of course, They see me and they start cat calling and hey, baby and wanna fuck and all these things I'm literally 17 years old and had just been Ejected from this abusive grooming relationship from this family member And was heartbroken because I had just

Candy:

Oh, man.

Sandi:

we mentioned that in a previous episode. I was not really in a good place.

Candy:

Mmhmm.

Sandi:

men started catcalling yelling. And of course this was not news to me. This had been happening since I was 11 years old, random men on the fucking street, grown ass men, an 11, 16 year old girl, like disgusting. And if you're out there doing

Candy:

Gross.

Sandi:

Like, just don't fucking do it. It's disgusting. And so, I just, and something in me, I remember, like, I almost felt like I could hear the snap in me. Like, something fucking snapped. And I put my car in park, put the brake on, and I got out of that car. And I was like, you motherfuckers! And I just got really big, and I was waving my arms. And they legit were like, Oh my God, because, because I don't think they were used to girls or women reacting to that in that way. They would they would feel empowered because they would like, you know, say these things and, and act these things out and they're, you know, they're stroking and doing all these like hand gestures. And I was just absolutely fucking enraged. And I went. Off. And I got back and it lasted probably two minutes and I just, I was in the street screaming. I had tears running down my face. I'm choking on spit and I was pissed and scared and just fucking on fire. And then I got back in my car and drove around and did whatever I was doing. And that was not, that was one of the probably biggest events that I had as far as raging at someone. But, A, they kind of fucking deserved it. And B, I just had had it and something in me was like, Oh, we're done with this. We are men do this to us anymore. But I don't think I was conscious of that. We're not going to let men do this anymore. But

Candy:

Wow.

Sandi:

Lashing out was, was an easier thing than being vulnerable and really working toward that self, that subconscious idea or, or thought of what just happened to you. Because no one was coming to my aid. No one, no adult in the world was telling me, Hey, this is, this was really wrong. Are you okay? Do you need to talk to someone? Do you need counseling? It just, it was a time period in the nineties when it just wasn't done.

Candy:

Right. I know! God, uh,

Sandi:

things. I've done my healthy share fair of startle response, feeling really tense. Um, I've been an insomniac virtually my whole life and thank God for Trazodone, now that I've recognized it, like my body. can, I can be very relaxed and most of the time I'm super chill. My ups and downs are very like meh, but there are some times when I have not taken care of myself. I'm poorly resourced. I haven't eaten enough. I haven't slept enough, or I've slept poorly or there's too much on my plate and I can start to feel that sort of creepy.... and I'm like, okay, need to do something. And for me that involves horror stuff.

Candy:

can, I can appreciate that.

Sandi:

Yeah.

Candy:

Yeah, that was a big one. Like the, in the avoidance category is, and I still struggle with this, and I get surprised at it because of how much work I've done and how safe I do feel. I will get in these states where I do not want to go to bed. I don't want to go to bed because bedtime is unsafe time.

Sandi:

Yes,

Candy:

And so sometimes when I don't have it in check, I will make myself stay up late. And I'm like, I'm fuckin tired! And I'm like, no you're not! We're gonna fuckin play another round of Fortnite and get our asses whooped instead of sleeping and taking care of ourselves. And that's tough. It doesn't happen as often as it used to, but I used to be a night owl, and I'm an early riser, and it's such a shitty combination, you know, and so I'm not well the next day because I'm not rested at all, and that contributes to my mental state, and in the past, of course, when it wasn't, when I didn't realize what was going on, it just, it just made everything worse, you know?

Sandi:

it does. Yeah, when we are not rested, we're not functioning on all cylinders and we can become very prickly and very dysfunctional. it's a thing. I think the other thing worth mentioning is the idea that when we are being traumatized, we are experiencing physical changes in our brain. Again, the neural pathway parts. Right?

Candy:

Yep,

Sandi:

those longer standing symptoms that we have, that tendency to be, you know, with sleep problems, being avoidant when we get overwhelmed, sometimes those, those are much, they're a much longer thing to get rid of. They take a lot longer because we have to have a lot of emotionally corrective experiences that, that build that resource up and, and re path that.

Candy:

right.

Sandi:

you know?

Candy:

Yeah, and I, and I had, I wanted to share this, that PTSD doesn't go away. It doesn't, that is like the whole nature of it. It's, it's like a fucking little critter in the corner just waiting for you to be vulnerable to come gnaw on your ankle, right? I had, I had, uh, A couple weeks ago, an incident with Mike and it came out of left field, it surprised the shit out of me. But we had, we had a discussion about something earlier, right? I'm not going to get into too much detail,

Sandi:

Yeah.

Candy:

but we had a discussion. He felt uncomfortable about a situation And I'm like, okay. Well, this isn't a big deal to me because you know, I'm very open Blah blah blah whatever and it was a great discussion. Like we worked through it like two healthy Adults, but for the next couple of days I fell off I fell off for several days actually and I I kept trying to identify like what the hell is wrong with me I can't I'm like I can't identify like what I'm feeling somebody give me a fucking emotions chart because I don't know what's going on Right? And so it's frustrating. I'm like, how old am I? And I can't identify what I'm feeling. Well, what ended up happening is it came to a head one evening when we're talking and I told him, I said, I'm feeling off and I can't identify what it is. And there was something about our conversation that night that made me realize that I had been waiting. for him to be angry. I have been waiting for him to explode on me. And that is not, that is not who Mike is. He is a very laid back, chill dude. Like, we had actually worked through all this, but in my brain, I'm like, well, in my experience, like, things will be cool. And then days later, that's when the shit really hits the fan.

Sandi:

Yeah.

Candy:

expecting a fight. I was expecting a verbal thing in the And, and I want to make it clear that that is not who Mike is at all. But in the past relationships I have been verbally assaulted because of something super simple or something that I didn't even do because my partner made up this story in their fucking head and ran with it, right? And then, and then I had to pay the price either verbally or physically.

Sandi:

Yeah.

Candy:

And, and when I realized that, It was like oh my god that it was like a fucking house of cards come crashing down and I started bawling and He handled it like textbook. Perfect. He was so amazing and and I was embarrassed and because it just It was so unexpected, and I still get embarrassed when I'm feeling emotionally vulnerable. I'm like, ah, this is uncomfortable, and I'm sorry I'm crying. And it's, I know that it's silly to be sorry for crying and feeling things, but when it's so unexpected and so powerful, I'm like, holy shit. Like I'm experiencing PTSD right now from my past fucking relationships. And then my second thought was, well, fuck. I thought I had like worked through all that shit.

Sandi:

Yeah,

Candy:

Add that to the list of things I need to still work on.

Sandi:

yeah, yeah. Unfortunately, trauma is the gift that keeps on giving, um, like that in those ways because I've had my fair share of things too, where we get looped back into that pathway and the narrative that accompanies it. And then we're like, waiting for the shoe to drop, walking on eggshells, like, Oh, Oh, it's going to be bad. It's going to be bad because it had been so bad, but you had

Candy:

Oh, it's so intense.

Sandi:

you have this wonderfully emotionally corrective experience with your current partner where he was loving and kind and compassionate and was like, shit happens. It's okay. You're safe. If you talked about it, but again, that is going to have to probably happen. A few, several, maybe many more times before your brain starts to go, Oh, we don't need to go that route. That route is a dead end. We don't need

Candy:

Right. Right.

Sandi:

Perfectly normal.

Candy:

Yeah. It was, it was so, it was so crazy. And it was crazy in its. It just, it came, it came out of left field. And I'm like, what the fuck? Like, I haven't been with an abusive partner in, oh my god. I think, I want to say it's been over.

Sandi:

Ten

Candy:

about 10 years now. Yeah, and it felt just as fresh that whole doom Feeling like oh my god. I'm in trouble

Sandi:

Yeah,

Candy:

that and I know a lot of people can relate to that that oh my god I'm in trouble.

Sandi:

it does get better. it gets better, but being conscious to it and understanding what happened and being able to soothe yourself through it and then being safe on the other side of it and having a partner like you do

Candy:

Right,

Sandi:

you with empathy and I understand and doesn't take it personally and isn't like, you're crazy. Like, why aren't you over this yet? Because again, Brain changes, physical brain changes that you experience, that I experience, that lead our brains down the fucking rabbit hole. It gets

Candy:

stupid rabbit hole

Sandi:

I know, stupid rabbit, digging holes in my brain.

Candy:

Hey, that's a good sticker idea it gets better I need I need a sticker says that it gets better writing that down I feel the need to clarify that this, this little PTSD monster lurking in the corner with Expecting violence or whatever hadn't presented itself before now because I kept myself numb. If I started feeling off just a little, if I stubbed my fucking toe, I would light up a joint. You know, that's where it got to. And now that I am sober, there are things that are coming up and I'm like, Oh shit. Okay. Well, like I said, add that to the list of things that I need to address and take care of, but that's okay

Sandi:

that's right. That's right.

Candy:

because I have the skills and the ability to do so now.

Sandi:

It's a, it's often a lifelong process, unfortunately, and knowing what

Candy:

Yeah.

Sandi:

you sustained as damage and knowing what I sustained as damage. We're probably two people who will continue to work at this for we're dead. Lucky us

Candy:

Ever. Yay.

Sandi:

But, but we can't, this is where PTSD is like a chronic disease, right? It's a chronic disorder. And

Candy:

Right.

Sandi:

we can upwrap ourselves from it, but we need to surround ourselves with the right kind of people and the right kind of support. And the taking, being such good stewards and caretakers of ourselves is really at the heart of healing from things like this.

Candy:

Yep.

Sandi:

Cool. Well, thank you for sharing your stories. Um, I think that the chicken soup incident, like, please don't feel ashamed about that. Don't be embarrassed. It's a,

Candy:

It's so embarrassing.

Sandi:

I know, but this is what trauma does to us. This isn't, this isn't a question of why the hell did you do that? This is a question of what happened to you to elicit that kind of response.

Candy:

Right. What happened to you? Oh, man. Putting it in that perspective. I'm gonna have to write about that. Because we talked about that.

Sandi:

when things, when things like this happen, we almost want to immediately go into what's that connected to for me?

Candy:

Right! Right! Ugh. So many things.

Sandi:

I know. So

Candy:

What a great episode

Sandi:

I hope so. I mean, we're here to bear, you know, kind of bear our own stories and share with people how we got to the place we're currently at and knowing that we're not done. And we hope that that's hopeful for listeners and that's encouraging and people who are listening to us Maybe writing down like check marks and boxes and going. Oh shit Like you can go you can go online and search PCL 5 assessment And you will get a trauma screening that comes up. And sometimes if you're having wonky symptoms and you're like, why, why am I being treated for depression? But I, my depression won't lift. And why am I being treated for anxiety? And I'm still having symptoms. And like, what's wrong with me that I'm not getting better? probably not what's wrong with you. It's what happened to you. So think back and go and

Candy:

Right.

Sandi:

could these things be related somehow to what I'm experiencing now and how dysregulated, regulated I get, or how, You know, I can't take care of myself or how I let shitty people into my life and like, let them sit there and camp out and like wreck my fucking campsite. Like there's, there's likely something going on there. That's a constellation that if we're just assigning depression and anxiety to it, we're not getting to the root cause.

Candy:

right,

Sandi:

Ask good questions. talk to somebody in the know. Get meds if you need it to help bridge the gaps and do a little bit more digging for yourself. who is a trauma therapist or somebody who can really help that you trust and can confide in and doesn't say, well, why are you behaving like this? Instead, find the people who say what happened to you?

Candy:

I love it.

Sandi:

All right. Well, thanks for being with us.

Candy:

Thank you everybody, glad you're here.

Sandi:

We'll see you guys next time.

People on this episode

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Candy Fantastic

Co-host
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Sandi Labo

Co-host