The Cloaked Tatters

S1E8 Grief

• Sandra Labo and Candy Fantastic • Season 1 • Episode 8

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In this episode Candy and Sandi explore the different ways to experience and move through and with grief.

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Candy:

Well, hello there, beautiful people! This is Candy.

Sandi:

And this is Sandy. And we are here today to talk to you a little bit about grief and loss. From my perspective as a therapist, grief and loss is lots of different things. Grief and loss can be collective, it can be individual, it can be relational, it can be cultural. There's all different types of grief and loss. It's a very personal thing. It's very individualized. And if I wanted to teach you nothing else today is that there is no one right way or wrong way to grieve. Everyone's process is personal and specific to their own needs. One of the things I've encountered a lot in my work with grievers, and people who have lost things and are grieving some sort of loss, whether it be a person, a pet, a job, a transition in life, stuff from childhood, is that Often people say, well, why aren't you over this already?

Candy:

Mm.

Sandi:

Hurry up and get past it.

Candy:

Right.

Sandi:

I don't love that. For me, I don't love it for you. I don't love it for anybody. And one of the other things that I often talk about in clinical services is that people often say really stupid shit to grievers.

Candy:

Yes they do, I have a friend who's a widow and she would tell me the things that people would say to her and it, and It would really surprise me, and also on the other side, like, it's really uncomfortable talking to somebody who is grieving because what do you say?

Sandi:

Yes.

Candy:

A lot of us have no idea what to say, and it's always fucking awkward.

Sandi:

And that's exactly why people say the things they say, because they don't know what to say.

Candy:

Right.

Sandi:

Rather than just saying, I'm gonna sit with you here in the muck. and let you process and have an audience or a witness for your grief.

Candy:

Right. Uh, empathy.

Sandi:

Yes.

Candy:

Sitting with somebody in their sadness.

Sandi:

Yeah. Feeling with as opposed to feeling for is probably one of the best remedies for grievers or the best interventions for grievers.

Candy:

And I got a healthy dose of that a couple weeks ago.

Sandi:

Yeah.

Candy:

With my boyfriend. His father died and I was there, it's been coming and, we sat with him for about four days with his family and actually the passing was a very beautiful thing and we talked about this a little bit because I felt weird saying that it was a beautiful thing.

Sandi:

Yeah.

Candy:

But it felt very natural and there was just a release and that's what I felt for the most part was the relief and the release and the beauty of it as it being a part of nature. And then I saw Mike start to cry and I lost my shit. I was so with him in his moment and how he was feeling. I have never experienced grief like that before. I've lost my grandma. You know, I had an issue with my youngest kiddo. being gone for several weeks when she was four and that, if I was in a healthy state of mind would have,, caused me to cry or grieve in a healthy way. But I have never sat with somebody in their sadness, their despair, their grief. And I found myself crying and, and I still, you know, when I see that he wants to cry, you know, we'll play a song so that he can cry. And then as soon as he starts, I'm starting and I'm crying with him and for him. It's a really, new experience for me.

Sandi:

Sure.

Candy:

And we've talked about it.

Sandi:

Yeah.

Candy:

I've talked about it with other people too.

Sandi:

Right.

Candy:

Uh, cause I'm just, I'm not used to feeling my feelings so heavily.

Sandi:

Right. And that is a huge change I am sorry for your loss and I'm sorry for your boyfriend's loss as well. These are hard things, but death is, as you said, beautiful. Because unfortunately, if we could live forever, maybe that'd be great, but we can't, and so it's part of life.

Candy:

Unless we find a vampire, I'm just saying, I'm still looking.

Sandi:

I'd vote for that. As well, yes, I would.

Candy:

Or if I could find some sort of fountain of something that would make me a god, I would be okay with that too.

Sandi:

I'm down, I'm down. There's plenty of shit to do so yeah, you can't run out of stuff to do or to be or to

Candy:

Right.

Sandi:

Investigate or to learn

Candy:

I Could learn how to play the guitar the piano I could like Become a soccer player. There's so many things

Sandi:

Yeah, mm hmm. Yeah Can you share a little bit more about your specific griefs

Candy:

my specific griefs Well I want to go back a little bit before I was able to experience grief in a healthy way. Before I got mentally well, and sober, and emotionally healthy, I didn't experience it much because I was always stoned. Or drinking. Or fucking. whatever I was using to cover up my emotions.

Sandi:

Sure.

Candy:

And so there was a lot of, like a back catalog of grief for me. And that has been a weird journey. The hardest grief that I have had to go through and, and still going through is the loss of my childhood. The loss of having quote unquote normalcy in my life. Almost ever, actually, because I've kept myself in chaos. We were just talking about this a little bit ago. You know, you grow up in chaos, and it becomes comfortable, and so you do things, I do things to make sure that I'm living in chaos because that's what I'm used to. Uh, so, it's been a really weird journey When I'm writing something or I watch a movie nowadays, like I never used to cry when Bambi died or anything like that. I'm like, yeah, my sister called me the ice queen. Just shove those emotions down, rub some dirt on it and walk it off.

Sandi:

You're fine. You're fine.

Candy:

Yeah, exactly. And now I'll watch something that'll touch on something from my past and I will, feel it in my chest and my body will experience this heavy sadness that I didn't know before or that I hadn't given myself the space to experience before and my automatic reaction is to shove it down like I would all these times before but I've gotten so much better at like pausing and sometimes Like we just mentioned for Mike when he lost his dad. I'll put on a song I will put on a song or play a movie or something that elicits that emotion and makes me cry so that I can grieve properly because I need those tears to come out.

Sandi:

Yes.

Candy:

Otherwise they're going to come out as anger, frustration, anxiety, depression.

Sandi:

Yes.

Candy:

Ooh, I hate when I get into a depression. And so, I will do whatever I can when something touches on a moment that I experienced in the past, and cry. Give myself the space to cry.

Sandi:

Yeah,

Candy:

and be okay with the crying. It's kind of like a twofold thing I'm I'm learning how to grieve because I'm only two years sober

Sandi:

Yeah

Candy:

and it feels like a really long time and it feels like such a short time and I'm still learning how to do so many of the things that I have denied myself by Being a fucking stoner.

Sandi:

Yeah for sure for sure

Candy:

and emotions are one of those

Sandi:

right.

Candy:

So that's, that's been, like, recently, those have been my major touches with grief. I did, I did lose a friend within, I think it was my first year of sobriety and he was a really, really good friend. And as soon as I found out, Oh, it's, it's,

Sandi:

I can see it.

Candy:

My eyes are burning a little bit. I loved this man so much. He was such a good friend. And I got a message. on his account from his brother. And I knew, boom, you know,

Sandi:

you knew right away.

Candy:

And I didn't even have to finish reading and I was a bawling bawling and I didn't know what to do. And I called my ex husband and he was really sweet about it. Like he was my main source of support as far as emotional, I didn't know what to do. I was lost.

Sandi:

Sure.

Candy:

And so that was, that was like my first stepping stone into feeling grief. while sober and, and I'll still get choked up.

Sandi:

Yeah.

Candy:

But I know how to handle it.

Sandi:

Right.

Candy:

You know?

Sandi:

And there's nothing wrong with getting choked up.

Candy:

Mm hmm.

Sandi:

Because grief, there, there used to be sort of a model I've primarily seen it sort of in social media and in documents about parents who've lost their children. And it's a statue of a person's shoulders and it's a stone statue and you can see the head at the top and then the shoulders come out and they go straight down so it's sort of box like and it's sitting on a bench and then there's a big hole in the center of it. You can literally see right through it. And so for a long time, people thought, well, grief is something like a speed bump. You know, you go through the seven stages of grief, the Kubler Ross stages, and then you get past the speed bump, and then you just forget about it and you move on with your life.

Candy:

No.

Sandi:

No, grief is actually a cluster that leaves a hole in us, like in the center of our plexus, right? In our gut. And then we grow new life around it.

Candy:

That's really beautiful.

Sandi:

Isn't it?

Candy:

Like the imagery that that evokes for me in my head is fucking beautiful. I like that a lot

Sandi:

Yeah, and it fits so well Because you will never replace that person, especially when it's a person or even a pet I've had people have I mean my reaction to losing my best friend in 2020 right before the pandemic hit He was what really helped me to get through my dad's grief death. And if I had not had him, and he almost died within like a month of my dad dying, and it was fucking awful. And once I lost him, I, I still grieve him, and I grieved my cat in a really weird fucking way, because, hey, horror fan, and I like the old world, I have sort of an old world sentimentality around grief and loss, because that's something that I've developed for myself. and I had him taken apart in multiple pieces, and he's in a purple bag with a cat skeleton on the front of it, behind my desk, in several jars, and I have his I have his face, I have his whiskers, I have parts of his, I have all of his parts of body separated out. Took him to the vet, had him put to sleep because he had cancer, he had a very large tumor in his gut, and we, we were allowed to take the body home, and I said to him, I said, because of my spiritual beliefs, I want his body, um, and I'm having things made from his body. And so I sat with him and I cleaned him and I gave him a bath and I held him in my arms for six or seven hours once we had brought him home. And then a friend of mine who worked at an oddity shop, who owned an oddity shop at the time, came and got his body and was going to plastinate his heart so I could wear it as a charm around my necklace around my neck. And that unfortunately did not come to fruition, but what she did do is separate all of his parts out and I have his ears on my altar in a glass jar filled with alcohol and glycerin and I can look right over here and look at them And if you swizzle the jar just a little bit the the hair in the ears moves like you were just standing there in the wind like waiting and looking. Um, and that's, that's something that I'm like, oh, that's amazing. Like, I remember him. He was part of my life for 16 years, and he was my very best furry friend, and I will never forget him. And yes, I have two other dipshit cats now who I love desperately, but they're not McKinley.

Candy:

Right.

Sandi:

So it's not replaced. The hole is filling around with other love from other little beings. And what was really cool and kind of grotesque about it, but also amazing, is that she, when she took his body apart, she pulled his tumor out. And she put it in this beautiful museum. Quality jar.

Candy:

Nice.

Sandi:

And she sold it to someone.

Candy:

Oh, I love that!

Sandi:

So he's living his, his tumor that killed him is living his best life on someone's shelf with a whole bunch of other oddities and weird morbid things and I'm like, I love it.

Candy:

Yes, yes. I've got, I've got a similar thing with my, my cat, Jeezis.

Sandi:

Jeezis!

Candy:

Sweet baby Jeezis. all the cats that I've owned, she was my baby and I only had her for eight years. I got her when she was five and she had to be put down when she was around 13, 14 and buried her because I want her bones.

Sandi:

Yes.

Candy:

I want her articulated.

Sandi:

Yep.

Candy:

And put under glass because I used to, I used to just sit and look at her when she would sit on the shelf and she was tiny. She was only like six pounds. She was a little tiny thing and she would like, she's like, be this tiny. She would sit so still and she'd look like this perfect little kitty statue. And I'm like, I want your bones when you die.

Sandi:

Yep.

Candy:

Yeah. So I just need to get the ex husband to mail them out to me. Or I need to drive to get them. Cause I think mailing, Dead body parts is illegal.

Sandi:

Yeah, it's, it's biohazard material. Yeah. Unfortunately.

Candy:

I will have to drive out to Michigan to get them.

Sandi:

Yes, yes. Is it interesting and weird and a coinkydinkle that I also have my last cat Fairbanks in my backyard waiting for his bones as well?

Candy:

It's the kind of people that we are.

Sandi:

High five. And that's not everybody's thing, so just to throw that out there, we understand if you find that weird or morbid or gross, everybody grieves differently, but having parts of our bodies, of the little souls that we loved with us, can be helpful to some people.

Candy:

Yes, I actually, right before I moved in with Mike, I received a box from my late biological father's wife of some of his ashes. And I thought I was done crying.

Sandi:

Oh,

Candy:

and when I got those, it, it brought, back the grief of losing a relationship that I will never have with him. That is a hole that I have been trying to fill. I had daddy issues. Okay. My whole life. And, and that will never be resolved. But going along with what you were just saying about making Something beautiful around it. I fucking love that. Like I view it as like a garden.

Sandi:

Yes.

Candy:

It's like a garden of voids.

Sandi:

Yes.

Candy:

Ooh, I like that. Yeah, I'm gonna write that down.

Sandi:

That could also be some really fantastic art.

Candy:

You're damn right.

Sandi:

The garden of the void.

Candy:

I love that.

Sandi:

Me too.

Candy:

Oh, I want to paint that shit.

Sandi:

Yeah.

Candy:

That needs to be a painting rather than a drawing.

Sandi:

Yeah, I have all kinds of images in my head of actually making something that's like a framework of that But then you put you grow flowers in it And then like the creeping ivy grows around it and then you can put like a mirror in there So that when you stare into it,

Candy:

oh my god.

Sandi:

Yeah, I know there's so many things in my brain right now

Candy:

3d art

Sandi:

Yeah,

Candy:

that is an excellent idea. I have a bunch of round mirrors about the size of a 50 cent piece. Yeah. I'm dating myself. Do they even make those anymore?

Sandi:

I don't, I don't, I don't know. We'd have to ask the Mint. Yeah. Grief is, and you know, grief can be funny. Um, When my dad passed, I went, well, when my dad passed, I lost my mind, like I literally legit fell the fuck apart. I had to go on FMLA, I could not work, I could not eat, I could not sleep. That was when I started watching Game of Thrones because I needed something to distract from just chronic crying.

Candy:

Escapism.

Sandi:

I mean, I cried so much that my eyes were swollen and like red, and like I could not stop crying. It was an it was the The most tears I think I've ever shed in my entire life. And I was already really struggling with my mental health at that time. I was very stressed out at my job, which I loved but didn't want to leave, but was starting to look for another position because this organization I was with Drug me and my entire team just through the coals, and we worked so hard to open a clinic for heroin users and people who are in the criminal justice system, and we were so passionate about what we were doing, but we were not getting paid nearly what we were worth, what the work was worth to those folks, those, the society at large.

Candy:

Right.

Sandi:

And it was a really, really hard time, and I was working. 50 to 60 hours a week every week and just so poorly resourced and spent and it was my first job out of grad school And I had never worked in an agency before and agencies have a tendency to overwork their people, and it was just a really bad situation so that when my dad died, I literally just could not do anything. And it was a while before I could get in and get meds adjusted because there was like a month waiting list, and so it was really, everything was really delayed, and he died three weeks before Christmas, a week before my child's seventh birthday, and three weeks before our wedding anniversary. And it was just a really, like, don't fucking die at Christmas time. Like, and don't die around Halloween either. Like, it's the worst fucking time for me. And, I really just had a struggle and I did not handle that grief as, as well as I might now, but it was like losing my person. a person that I admired and was my I mean, I loved him so much and he was a problematic person and had a lot of flaws and just like we all do, but I just could not imagine my life without him. And at one point when things got better for me, and I could leave the house, I think it was about six weeks in and we had, we, he was cremated. I was bound and determined. I was there when he died. And then I was determined to go with him, to the crematorium. So, my husband took me, he waited in the lobby, I went in, they pulled my dad out of a freezer, he was stored in a box, and we took the box apart, and I cut his beard, we sang a song, I showed him some pictures, and I talked to him, and then I got to push him in the oven.

Candy:

That's fuckin cool. Is that weird to say?

Sandi:

No.

Candy:

That is really cool to be that involved in, like, the, uh, finishing off of, the end of life.

Sandi:

Yes.

Candy:

That's nifty.

Sandi:

That's a very old world way of being involved in a process of death and dying. And 200 years ago, when we're pioneer folks, right? We've got people who come in and they used to have like a these slanted boards. I can't remember the name of them, but they're very cool looking and they're hard to find. But when I see them, I'm like, Oh, I want to buy that. But it's literally a board that you lay on the kitchen table and it's like a cooling board and it kept the body cool so that people could go into people's houses on the Prairie and walk around and pay their respects and then go out the back door and they would bury the person in the family plot that was literally on their land, like, there couldn't be anything more natural about taking care of your dead person, your dead loved person, you took care of them in life, why not extend that to the death culture, right?

Candy:

Right.

Sandi:

And that, that death positivity, um, it just, it strikes me as just, it, it fits in my heart, like it's something that I absolutely needed to do. And so when we got his ashes back, I was like, I have to do something with this. And so we kind of split them. My mom got half, I got the other half and I made a little tiny plastic jar that I kind of super glued shut to give to my seven year old. And he put it in his room. And then I have my little heart glass, clear glass thing where you can see all the chips of his bones and his ash and fill the jar with that. And then I went and got a tubular necklace from, the witchy store down the street and I put his ashes in that with some rose oil and at one point was fucking around with it like unscrewing the cap and I dumped him out.

Candy:

Oh no!

Sandi:

And I could hear my dad and I was like frantic like oh my god like just scoop the ash-- you know put it back and I could hear my dad and all of his humor in my head going just throw me in the trash kid there's more. And and so grief and loss and death can be funny and it can be Charming and beautiful and silly and but I think that people are really hesitant to like lean into those different rituals Because like in Western culture now, we're like, oh, you know, you have a funeral and this is not for everybody But most of the time it's we have a funeral we pay our respects Then we go eat and then we get you know Really weepy and we enjoy the day and then we cry with everybody and then we go home And then we don't talk about the person again.

Candy:

Right.

Sandi:

What the fuck is that?

Candy:

You know, that's very true. In this whole experience that I've had with Mike recently, we had the funeral, and everybody was really pleased with how he looked. And that made me happy.

Sandi:

Yes.

Candy:

I'm like, that's fucking great. Like, you know, And afterwards we had a celebration of life at another location and the energy there was amazing.

Sandi:

Yes.

Candy:

There was no sadness. Right. Everybody was happy and everybody wanted to see each other and there was visiting and I haven't had that. in my family, like a huge family gathering since the matriarchs died, you know, and even then there was some tension because, you know, just different, different families all right.

Sandi:

Sure.

Candy:

But it was so cool to see all these people that were just crying and grieving like an hour ago, happy and eating and sharing stories and meeting. Well, I got to meet a gajillion new people, you know, and it was, such a cool event and I love that, you know, and it made me think about what do I want for myself? Yes, people grieve how you want when I'm not here anymore, but man, celebrate the shit out of my life and the good times. Like you don't have to dwell on the sad. You can also celebrate the happy.

Sandi:

That's right.

Candy:

Yeah.

Sandi:

That's right. When we live life, we're whole people with a whole range of experiences, emotions, ups, downs, problems, great times. And why, why are we not allowed to celebrate that in an ongoing way? One of the interventions that I use a lot That sounded crazy to people in the beginning, but it's actually something that we recommend and grief, grief specialists now recommend this. And I read this book when I was grieving my dad, and it really meant a lot to me and it was basically all about how do you continue a relationship with your loved one past their death? And a lot of that includes talking to them out loud, including them in family rituals or traditions or events or customs.

Candy:

I like that so much. I, you mentioned that to me when all this was going down.

Sandi:

Yeah.

Candy:

And I actually had a conversation with his dad while I was driving in the car. Like, I don't know you, but we're going to talk. And it felt there was something very relaxing. I don't know what the right word is. It was, it was relaxing and loving experience.

Sandi:

Yeah.

Candy:

And I felt so calm afterwards.

Sandi:

Right. Grief and loss is, especially when it's death losses, I think that there are all different kinds of ways that we have yet to explore in our Western culture that really involve more ancient rituals and more ancient ways of showing up.

Candy:

Mm hmm.

Sandi:

You know, like there's one town in Colorado that you can have a funeral pyre. That is, that's how I would want to go. And you can go out like a fucking viking.

Candy:

Yes!

Sandi:

And everybody shows up, and they put the body on the pyre, and they pay their respects, and they watch the body burn.

Candy:

Mm hmm.

Sandi:

And that's amazing.

Candy:

I think it's a beautiful way to say goodbye. Like when you were talking about being able to push your father into

Sandi:

An oven.

Candy:

The oven.

Sandi:

Yeah, I know, I know.

Candy:

I'm like, I'm trying to be delicate here.

Sandi:

No, no, no, no. My dad would have been like, what the hell? But, okay, just shove me in the oven, kid. Like, he would have had a total sense of humor about it. Yeah. And what really bothered me about that, because I thought that that was such a beautiful way to honor him no longer physically being with us. That I was there at the moment of his death, and I was the only one there. I had sent my mom home, because I was like, she's not going to be able to handle this. And I'm so glad that it went down like it did. That I was there alone, and I got to tell him, and hold him, and say, it's okay to go. I know that you're not going to make it, and we are, I've accepted that, and here we go.

Candy:

Right.

Sandi:

It's okay to let go. And I was holding his body, and his heart just stopped. And then I remember shortly after that, screaming.

Candy:

Oh my gosh.

Sandi:

But it was important for me to complete that cycle with him.

Candy:

Mm hmm.

Sandi:

And to stay with him until the very end.

Candy:

Right. I could totally understand that.

Sandi:

And my best friend at the time, who we're no longer connected, said to me, I can't believe you're gonna do that, Sandy. You're gonna regret it.

Candy:

Really?

Sandi:

Yeah.

Candy:

Huh.

Sandi:

This is a friend who thought they knew me. But I was in a process of change and have shifted a lot from the time that my dad passed because I always look at my dad's death and I say about it that it was the worst and best thing that ever happened to me.

Candy:

Okay.

Sandi:

It was a catalyst for massive, just seismic shifts in my life that I needed to make.

Candy:

Okay.

Sandi:

But how dare somebody. Again, back to the stupid shit that people say to grievers. And that was far more about her discomfort than it ever was about mine.

Candy:

Right.

Sandi:

And that's okay.

Candy:

Yeah.

Sandi:

But at the time hearing that, it felt very cold and very calculated against my heart and what my heart felt it needed to do with him or for him.

Candy:

So, I want to ask you a question. Cause I struggle with people that seem to stay in heavy grief. I struggle with that and I recognize that that is a me problem. You know, um, people that have lost spouses almost 10 years prior, things like that. I wonder what the discomfort is in me that I struggle with that in other people. Do you know what I'm, you know what I'm saying?

Sandi:

I do.

Candy:

What is that?

Sandi:

Well, do you want my personal opinion or my clinical opinion or a little bit of both?

Candy:

Give me a little bit of both. I'm curious cause we've been talking about it and now I'm like, I'm kind of an asshole about this thing.

Sandi:

I think knowing what I know about you, and knowing you, is that you have such a capacity for intense connection and love and feeling, but for so many years it was numbed out, that it's uncomfortable to think about grief as something that you don't speed bump.

Candy:

Oh. Okay.

Sandi:

Like, let's move past the suffering already, shall we?

Candy:

Right, cause I'm always like, let's, alright, let's do it, whether it's good or bad. I'm like, let's work through this, and what's the next thing? Like, I struggle to pause. Uh, it doesn't matter what it is. I'm like, alright, cool, I finished writing this rough draft. Alright, let's get to writing the first draft of it. You know?

Sandi:

Grief is not a task. It's a process.

Candy:

God dang it. Things are so much easier when they're a task and I can check it off.

Sandi:

You can't do that with grief easily.

Candy:

And I'm finding that out.

Sandi:

And so many people try to do that because, again, I think that goes back to our culture of Okay, you have, your person dies, you plan the funeral, you go to the crematory, you go to the funeral home, and you have a service, if there's religious, you know, stuff involved, you do that too, and then you have the meal, and everybody comes into town, and then what happens is that everybody scatters after that, and the grievers are left alone.

Candy:

Mmm.

Sandi:

And again

Candy:

Oh, shit. That's heavy.

Sandi:

People don't know what to say. So they leave us in our grief.

Candy:

Huh you make a really good point. That I, I don't even know that your average person would think about. Cause, I mean, everybody just goes back to their lives.

Sandi:

Right.

Candy:

And, for them, it was maybe a speed bump.

Sandi:

Yeah.

Candy:

You know, people that are on the periphery and not directly or as emotionally involved with the person that has passed.

Sandi:

Sure.

Candy:

Oh my goodness.

Sandi:

One of the most beautiful gifts that I received throughout the course of grieving my dad in that first three months when I was on FMLA, I couldn't work, couldn't think, I couldn't breathe, I couldn't eat. It was panic attack after panic attack. I mean, I was such, I was in such bad shape. My previous clinical supervisor who supervised me when I was working in the community corrections facility, she's a wonderful woman. and I respect her and love her so much to this day. She was amazing with grief and sitting with discomfort. And she came over one day or she called me to schedule something and just check in on me. And I said, I am not doing very well. And she came over and she brought me challah that she had handmade. And she sat with me and she just let me put my head in her lap And she just let me cry. And she didn't say much. She didn't need to say much. She just let me be in it, and she sat with me in it. And I had very few people who were willing to do that with me.

Candy:

You're going to make me cry, not only because you're crying, also because what you just said is the root of my discomfort with somebody and longterm grief. I have not had the opportunity to just cry. Ooh, it gets me emotional just thinking about it. I haven't had that experience. I want to and maybe the opportunity has been there, but I didn't take it because of that upbringing and pride, whatever.

Sandi:

Yeah.

Candy:

Whatever reason. Because as soon as you started saying that, like, I felt envy for that. Like, not in a bad way, but like, man, I want to fucking cry in somebody's lap. I want to cry over the loss of my bio dad. I want to cry over the loss of my childhood. I want to cry over sweet baby Jeezis.

Sandi:

Yeah.

Candy:

You know?

Sandi:

Yeah.

Candy:

I haven't had much opportunity for that. Damn, dude.

Sandi:

Yeah.

Candy:

So that, I think that's it right there.

Sandi:

Yeah.

Candy:

Is, oh, okay.

Sandi:

So if we switch a little from that, because we don't want to get too stuck in our feels right now, because we got to finish this, right?

Candy:

Right.

Sandi:

But I think that's something that is, is a reasonable thing to ask for, but it makes me think about the horror movie Midsommar.

Candy:

Yeah, tell me about that. I remember watching it.

Sandi:

Okay, so there's a scene in the movie where, I mean the whole premise of the movie is that the main character, she has a mentally ill sister who I believe the mental illness is bipolar disorder.

Candy:

That's right.

Sandi:

And the sister kills herself and kills her parents by putting a hose from the garage and turning on the car and putting it on their face. And it's a really vivid, ugly scene of somebody who is completely suicidal and then takes their parents down with them.

Candy:

Ah, that's, I'd forgotten about that.

Sandi:

And the woman who, and I cannot remember her name, it's Florence Pugh's character, I cannot remember her name, but she goes through this entire process, and the boyfriend is about to leave her, although she doesn't know that, and then he goes to Sweden to do this trip with his friends who are doing graduate studies on death in culture, in different cultures. And so they get to this culture. They get to this area, and everybody is dressed in the same kinds of clothing, everything is very, I mean, we're definitely entering sort of like cult material, right? But there's a scene in it when she finds out that he has had sex with one of the girls in the religious community.

Candy:

Oh, yeah.

Sandi:

And during that As he's having sex with this girl, there are women standing all around pushing on his back with the movements of him. And, and these orgasmic cries are happening throughout the women. Well, Florence Pugh's character walks in on this and sees this and realizes this man has broken her heart. And how fucking dare he, because She just lost her mom and her dad her sister and then she goes into the the little area where they've been staying this like communal bedroom and all of the women from the community come in and Florence Pugh's character is heaving on the ground and she's on all fours and she's gagging and choking on the grief and the pain and she is sobbing and these guttural sounds are coming from her and the women all start to look her dead in the eye and mimic her body language and then and make these same guttural sounds.

Candy:

That gives me chills. I remember that.

Sandi:

And it's a community sharing in this, they're collectively sharing her pain.

Candy:

Right.

Sandi:

And there's something really disturbing yet also really beautiful about it.

Candy:

Oh, that's, it's totally beautiful. Yes. Yes, it's such a weird dichotomy, too, of the disturbing and beautiful. It's, well, it's kind of like death.

Sandi:

Yeah, yeah.

Candy:

You know, mostly for Western culture, I would say.

Sandi:

Right, sure.

Candy:

Because, yeah. But, oh, there's not, there's not enough of that. You know, it, it plays in with the, people going their separate ways and then dealing with their lives and the grievers are left by themselves.

Sandi:

Right.

Candy:

Rather than being able to sit. in a safe space with it and just, Oh, let it out. However, that's going to look, I mean, heavy grief is ugly.

Sandi:

Yes.

Candy:

That's the ugly crying right there. And, and I have cried so much that I wanted to throw up and, you know, but I'm by myself. Right. Right. And it would have made a world of difference if somebody else would have been there, you know?

Sandi:

Yeah, yeah. When I get people in therapy who are grievers, whether it's a very current loss, a death loss, or a very old death loss, very often times when I show any amount of empathy, it cracks them. And you can, I visibly watch that process happen and they crack apart and it's just tears streaming down their face and some, sometimes there's snot and drooling and falling over and you can just watch their bodies crumble. And it is an honor to be an assistant to that and to just be present and be a witness to somebody who is in that much pain. Invariably, people will apologize.

Candy:

Mm hmm.

Sandi:

And I say, no, no. We don't do that here.

Candy:

Right.

Sandi:

But it isn't. And then we go into why it's interesting that you're apologizing. Where did that come from?

Candy:

Right.

Sandi:

But that's largely, I think, influenced by our society and our culture that has such a discomfort with death and dying. And we've made it this very, like, clinical process and we've handed the body over to professionals who then we pay thousands of dollars to, even if we can't afford it, to take care of it for us. which is why I think like death positivity and death culture is so important. There's a, there's a woman who I've read her books and I saw her speak, was so fortunate to see her speak like 15 or 16 years ago at the Denver County Library downtown on, on the main branch. And she, her name is Caitlin Doughty and she's, she works in the funeral industry.

Candy:

Okay.

Sandi:

And she had a business in Los Angeles called Undertaking LA, and she would invite people in to be a part of the process with her to prepare the body for burial cremation.

Candy:

Cool.

Sandi:

And I don't know if she still does that work, but her books are amazing.

Candy:

Oh.

Sandi:

And she did this whole presentation and they set it up like a funeral in the basement of the library.

Candy:

Oh my god.

Sandi:

And they handed out, like, there were pallbearers and there were assistants, like, you know, people escorting people to their chairs.

Candy:

Uh huh.

Sandi:

And she did this amazing presentation on grief and death and dying and the funerary. You know, situation of like, and that's where I learned about that town in Colorado where you can literally do the funeral pyre. You have to be a resident there, by the

Candy:

I know, I've looked it up too.

Sandi:

But her, her, some of her experiences about how we have, like, isolated the process of the death and dying and the, all of the, you know, like, the embalming. There's no need to do that.

Candy:

No.

Sandi:

There's, there's no need. It's, it's something that's been sold to us as, well, you have to do this so the body is presentable. Well, you've probably seen your loved one at their worst in life being really sick, thrown up, and everything. Like, why can't we handle this part? But people very much, and I get it, people shy away from it. People don't, I don't expect people to totally agree with all the things that I'm saying, but again, grieving is very personal.

Candy:

Right.

Sandi:

People can be as involved or not as they want to be in that process, but I think we need more options for people to be able to do that if they want to.

Candy:

I would agree.

Sandi:

Yeah.

Candy:

But I think it's illegal to possess body parts, is it not?

Sandi:

Well, if you're not going to tell anybody, I'm not going to tell anybody.

Candy:

I mean, I mean, I would love to have a skull, I'm just saying. No, but, but it I love that. Like, it would be cool. I used to joke around with my friend. I'm like, well, if you die, I want your skull, you know, can I, I'll put it under fucking glass and put it on my altar. Yes. I will worship the shit out of that thing.

Sandi:

And that's just a way to take them with us.

Candy:

Right. Right.

Sandi:

And they live on in some way.

Candy:

Yeah. And that's, that's part of the individual process of grieving. Some people just want the ashes. You know, my friend Amanda, when her father passed, she got ashes and got them, mixed with glass and a pendant as her, I think it's her father or it was her father or her sister. And I'm like, that would be cool. And I'm like, bitch, you don't fucking wear jewelry. Think of something else. I'm like, God, all right. You know, so, but I could paint with them, you know, it's, it's like a way of honoring. Oh, that is so cool. Yeah, actually. I really like that. I'm kind of stuck on that idea now.

Sandi:

Yeah. Well, I took my dad's ashes and not only had them in a necklace for a long time, but I also took part of his ashes and hand poured a candle that I keep in my playroom next to his little heart shaped clear jar of ashes, and sometimes I light his ass on fire. And I bring them with me.

Candy:

I like that so much. There's so much, there's so many different ways to, to deal with the grief and death. And they don't all have to be sad or, or, well, they can be morbid if we want them to be. And there's nothing wrong with that, but they don't have to be sad.

Sandi:

Right.

Candy:

You know?

Sandi:

Right.

Candy:

Like, they can cover the whole gamut of emotions, you know, depending on how you want to treat it. A lot of people like to treat death with reverence. Hey, that's fucking cool.

Sandi:

Right.

Candy:

I'm more of an irreverent type.

Sandi:

Mm hmm. Yeah Why are we even here?

Candy:

Right, but it's really it is it is so cool talking about this and even just talking for the little bit that we have about what you've experienced firsthand, secondhand and how you've handled grief helps me think outside my box on how, like, what am I going to do with my fucking bio dad's ashes?

Sandi:

Yeah.

Candy:

You know?

Sandi:

Yeah.

Candy:

I'm like, I'm going to, I want to fucking paint with them. I want to take my grief and put it into a painting and use some of his ashes to go into it.

Sandi:

Yeah. That's a glorious idea.

Candy:

Isn't it?

Sandi:

And you just have to get yourself one of the mortar and pestles over here like I have, and you can grind it up and put it into your paints.

Candy:

I love it.

Sandi:

And now it's going to have a nice texture to it.

Candy:

I love me some texture painting. So that just works out perfect.

Sandi:

Reminds me of the people that are doing um, the blood work now. And you can literally go to the Oddities Festival, which happens here in Denver in October, close to my birthday.

Candy:

Oh my god.

Sandi:

And they will suck your blood out of your arm and then they will make a painting with it. and hand it to you.

Candy:

That's cool. I'll wait. I want to paint with my own blood though.

Sandi:

Yeah. So, you know,

Candy:

that's fricking cool.

Sandi:

And that's a way to honor life.

Candy:

Yeah.

Sandi:

It's like a living, breathing piece of art that then, you know, when somebody decides, Oh, we're going to sell this in a garage sale. No, you do not. You put that somewhere safe because that's your parent or your friend or whoever, you know,

Candy:

That is really freaking cool. I dig that idea.

Sandi:

Yeah. People make pendants and jewelry now with blood inside of them as well.

Candy:

Yeah. Transforming trauma into art.

Sandi:

Yep. I know.

Candy:

I'm gonna, I'm gonna bring that up ad nauseum.

Sandi:

Okay.

Candy:

Just because it's so important.

Sandi:

No, no, no. I know. I know.

Candy:

That is the only reason I'm still here.

Sandi:

Yeah. Yeah.

Candy:

So cool.

Sandi:

Is there anything else that you want to add? Because I think we're almost

Candy:

i, you know, I don't think so. I think we've covered a lot of really good stuff talking about what grief looks like and what it looks like to handle it on different levels. And all of those levels are okay. You know, everybody is going to handle grief differently. I got something out of this as far as like my lack of tolerance for people who seem to be mired in their grief. I'm like, just fucking get over it. And I wrote this down. Grief is not a task.

Sandi:

Yeah.

Candy:

That is the most important thing.

Sandi:

Right. And unfortunately, largely I've seen more people look at it that way than as a process. But through education and talk and sitting with the discomfort and sitting with the loss, people often come to the determination that it's okay for me to cry over this person that's no longer here.

Candy:

Right.

Sandi:

Or this thing that I lost. Like my childhood you and I will both still shed tears probably for the rest of our lives about what we lost

Candy:

Yeah,

Sandi:

when we were being abused.

Candy:

Yeah,

Sandi:

and that is okay.

Candy:

Yeah, I have found that as I'm experiencing grief more and more allowing myself to feel that I'm able to process it in a more effective manner.

Sandi:

Yeah But sometimes, grief's still gonna make people a fuckin mess.

Candy:

Yep.

Sandi:

And that's when you have to say, okay, let's embrace the mess.

Candy:

Yep. Embrace the mess. I like that. I'm gonna write that down, too.

Sandi:

Well, I hope that if anybody is a griever and happens to be listening today or it taps into some of your own grief. My hope for you is that you will sit with it or you invite somebody in that you love and trust that you can be safe with to process your grief perhaps newly or additionally or in a different way than perhaps you've thought of it before.

Candy:

Bawl in somebody's lap.

Sandi:

Yeah.

Candy:

Thanks for being here everybody.

Sandi:

Peace out. We'll see you next week.

People on this episode

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Candy Fantastic

Co-host
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Sandi Labo

Co-host