Sandi and Candy discuss escapism as a tool for healing and human maintenance.
Sandi and Candy discuss escapism as a tool for healing and human maintenance.
Well, hello, hello, everyone! Welcome to episode six of The Cloaked Tatters. This is Sandi and
Candy:This is Candy.
Sandi:Welcome, welcome. So today we thought we would talk about escapism. Uh, we addressed it a little bit last week about some of the things that we like to do in our youth to sort of reclaim our lost time. However, we did not delve too much into escapism. My question clinically is often what to what degree is escapism a good thing and a really helpful thing, or can it be a drawback when we're dealing with trauma in general as A thing that we have to get past or mental health in general. I think for adults escapism is a necessary way to get through life. Period.
Candy:Damn right it is. I have used it. I use it all the time! I would love to hear about your escapism slash coping mechanisms as a kiddo that you engaged in.
Sandi:There's, there's a few, and interestingly enough, a lot of the things that I was interested in as a kid and then got to the place where I was being traumatized, I missed out on some of the developmental tasks that would have been appropriate and healthy for my age and my stage of development. So I do think, in a nutshell, I have gone back to completing some of those developmental tasks involving how I play as an adult. For 20 years prior to where I am now, I did not do as much playing because I was dealing still with a hell of a lot of anxiety and I wasn't allowing myself to do new things. I got very stuck in What I was supposed to be doing and what I thought the world wanted from me Which was go to college, get an education, get married, have a family, buy a home And those are the developmental tasks of living and then once you get to a certain stage of adulthood, you kind of stop Doing new things you kind of stop engaging in new novel things And part of that was I was still very stuck in a place with my trauma that I had not done all of the things I needed to do with it to integrate it so that I could move the fuck on and start having more fun. Unfortunately, I have worked with a fair share of adults who have been told the same thing. And it often gets described to me in such a way that's like, I did what everyone told me to do. I got sold a bill of goods, and then I got to this stage in my life, and now I feel like I've been kind of ripped off because I didn't play enough. And worked too much, and I stayed away from my kids, and I didn't develop friendships. Fuck. What do I do now?
Candy:All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy.
Sandi:Ha ha ha. Yes. It's fucking true, though. It's totally true. So I really wanted to kind of focus from my little escapism pieces that I truly enjoy in a couple of ways. So when I was little, I think you guys remember from episode four, I had this huge Barbie collection and I remember putting those Barbies through it. And again, there was that one Ken doll who's kind of on the sidelines, like just, you know, a static character. Some of my Barbies went to college. Many of my Barbies were like scientists. They were creating things. Like they were, these were very involved characters for me. And each one of them had a specific role to play. And if I look at that from sort of a clinical psychoanalytic perspective, there's this idea that I was developing parts of myself that. Throughout the time that I was doing developmental tasks in childhood and adolescence and up to young adulthood, I did not have the opportunity to actually do those things. Right. And so now that I'm 51, I'm doing all those things and I don't care if it looks weird
Candy:Yes!
Sandi:Right?
Candy:Yep.
Sandi:So a lot of the, the character roles that I would invent for Barbies when I was a small person, I'm back to developing those characters, but I do it on my face. So, like, every September, and this has been 15 years or more now, since my kid's been born, and that's another interesting thing that I do want to mention about my particular path is that when my child was born, I got pregnant at 36 and had him at 37. That is also when I decided to drop my corporate job because I just was miserable and it wasn't meaningful and it wasn't value based living and I could recognize that and I chose a new career path. And I was either going to be a mortician. Or I was going to be a therapist. Turns out, live people are a whole lot more problematic to work with. They say more, and I'm not knocking it, because I love, love, love my job. However, if I'm still craving silence in another ten years, I may still pursue mortuary science. Because I'm still fascinated.
Candy:There is a fascination with that.
Sandi:Yes. And it's a sacred honor to be in that work anyway. It's a sacred honor being in the work that I am in currently. But, so back to the original point of when I got pregnant at 36 and then changed jobs, um, I ended up quitting my job at 37 with a 9 month old on my hip and going back to grad school. And my reasoning for that was, how am I supposed to raise a kid? Who I say, the world is yours. Go be anything you want. Explore. And live authentically. if I wasn't doing it myself. And so that was the big impetus for me. And having a kid, of course, especially now, there are a lot more people playing with their children and being really engaged with their children.
Candy:Right.
Sandi:And I, I mean, I took my kid everywhere. I took him to museums. We spent probably 70 percent of his young childhood, his babydom at the museum. libraries, which was great. It was tons of, and we would go to the library and literally rent as many books as they would allow us, and sometimes I would come home with like two grocery bags full, like 60 books at one time, and he would just absorb those. So that is my cue as a parent at that point was to, play more, and be more present. So my son and the birth of my son really helped me to redevelop my play skills as an adult, which some people say that that's a little weird, but I'm also doing my fair share of adulting. I'm paying bills. I have a house. I pay for a car. I buy groceries. I do all the things that adults expect, that it's expected of us, but I also play, and I incorporate play and fun into my daily life because it's how I survive this really Beep dup world. So a lot of it was characters, and so now when September rolls around I am with my face paints and my makeup And I'm I'm an early bloomer. Don't I'm not waiting for October to put my face on I'm gonna start going to events and every time and I don't go to work like this I would show up at work and people be like, what's that? But then they would look at me and go I'm not surprised Let's be honest I roll how I roll, but I, I will absolutely go and put a character on my face and go places. People, people can think of it what they want. I don't care. I know I get to use my palettes. I know I get to use new techniques. I get to experiment. And whatever ends up on my face is how it ends up. And so I take pictures of myself every fall season whenever we go to events. And I take, you know, it's like number, you know, day number one of day 10 of makeup. So I love doing that. That's part of a character creation, which is an escapism piece for me.
Candy:I like that. I can see that. Yeah, it's making yourself into somebody different. I was looking at pictures of myself on my phone in my memories and I'm all, Damn, who is that? When I put on makeup and really go all out, I feel like I'm somebody else. you know, I can be somebody else. And I find even just the act of putting on lipstick will change the mood. It changes my mood and how I interact with people and how I just look at the world around me. It's, it's very fascinating phenomenon.
Sandi:I love it. Um, horror is always something that has been an escape for me. Absolutely, since I was six, five years old. I was born in October. I love Halloween. It's my jam. It is my fuckin holiday. And I'm going to be more weird, more weird than I typically am, during those fall months than any other time of the year. And I get very excited. I get all of them when the weather cools down, the crunch of leaves is on the ground, I awake, I wake up. That is Wakey Wakey! Time to be alive!
Candy:It's hoodie weather. I love hoodie weather.
Sandi:It's so great. I will stand, I will stand out in my yard and I, and I decorate in stages. So that's really part of like a character development too. But a character that I get to then live in. And when I drive up to my house from going to the grocery store or wherever, I get to drive up and go, ah, look at my house.
Candy:I love that. I love that.
Sandi:So I like creating scenes. When we used to run our haunted house at our house, you would stand on our roof in September and October, and it would look like Waco in our backyard, like literally walls and partitions and lumber. And we had an insane asylum one year that we, I mean, even down to like the clipboards with the patient's names on the windows. And it was, it's a way to dress my life and, and create a new environment and create a, like a scene scape that's a sensory thing. There's lights, there's sounds, there's smoke sometimes there's smells. You know, just that, that being encapsulated in an entirely different environment and it, it fills my travel bug, which I simply can't afford to do because now it's so obscenely outrageous to go anywhere and do anything.
Candy:Yes.
Sandi:So I create my own environment at home.
Candy:That's great. that's I like to do that too when I have when I have the ability to do so. Yeah.
Sandi:So I think escapism can be a double edged sword for people. Um, we know that there have been plenty of research studies about, and these are studies from 15, 20 years ago, that were talking about how bad it was for kids to play video games. Now, the research has shifted to Video games in moderation are actually good for kids brains. Many times, especially if they're playing games like where they have to work as a team.
Candy:Oh, yes, I could definitely see that being a fan of Fortnite, and those kinds of things. Communication can be very helpful in achieving the goal.
Sandi:Right. So there's communication skills, there's problem solving skills. We're doing, you know, the whole like side quest thing, which, you know, there's colloquial language in our society right now for, people who are doing adulting. And then they're like, well, I'm doing a side quest this weekend. I can't, I can't tell you how many times I hear that a week or a month. Oh, I have a side quest. Fucking awesome. Where are you going? What are you doing? You know, which is great for people because they're literally saying I have had enough of adulting this week. It's too much pressure. There's too many shoulds. There's too many things. We were not meant as a society. Don't think to make this many fucking decisions in one day.
Candy:No, I don't. I would agree with you. We're overloaded with information and decisions that we do have to make.
Sandi:That's right.
Candy:Because there's a demand on our attention. Yeah. All the time.
Sandi:And born out of that is the idea of anxiety disorders.
Candy:Yep.
Sandi:There's too much to do, there's not enough time, yet you're feeling so pressured from society, your boss, your spouse, your kids, your friends, your parents, to do all these things, you know, the shoulds. And sometimes people cave under the shoulds and they don't get enough of the I wants.
Candy:Okay,
Sandi:We have to lean into the wants, we have to lean into escapism. I think everything in balance, and that's sort of my typical Libra way of like, you gotta have balance with things. You have to do some of the have tos, because that also fuels a certain part of us too. It helps us to gain a sense of mastery over our lives. It helps us to gain confidence learning new things. Doing hard things and pushing through them can be very, it can be wonderful for our brains, and it is wonderful. We need that, but for as much as we need that, we also need times where we play the escapism game, and we just go play. And every time I ask people like, How was your weekend? What did you do? When they talk about that, it's a very different conversation and tone than when they talk about Friday. I've worked all week, my brain is melting. I'm so fucking tired of this place.
Candy:Right.
Sandi:Yeah. It's a very different conversation. So we all need to engage in the escapism pieces. Um, and I think that's, I just think it's important.
Candy:It is.
Sandi:So you want to talk a little bit about some of the things that you used for escapism and continue to use?
Candy:Oh, yeah. So My first escapism that I can recall was, I mean, aside from romping around in the woods and pretending to be on an adventure, was Star Trek. Star Trek was escapism, or I could go even broader and say television, but more specifically Star Trek Twilight Zone. And I would just sit there and I would doodle or make friendship bracelets and listen to it. I could, because I think it was channel two would play, they would do this, the Trek a thon all the time. And so. I knew the episode. I didn't have to actually watch it. I could listen to it and know what was happening. And I would go there in my brain and I would not have to exist in my world for a little while.
Sandi:Sure.
Candy:And I needed that badly.
Sandi:I was just going to say you needed that.
Candy:I did. I had to go, I had to go bye bye and check out for moments of time in order to regulate myself. I didn't realize that's what I was doing at the time, but it is something that I still do. To regulate myself. I'm like, I'm really feeling anxiety and you were just talking about being pulled in a million different directions.
Sandi:Right.
Candy:I have a tendency to overbook myself socially and with obligation because it does fill my cup so much, but then I'm like, I freak out. I get, I feel myself getting grumpy, and that's usually a sign of anxiety, like you were just saying. And I have to clear my calendar.
Sandi:Yes.
Candy:And, explain to my friends, I'm like, I'm sorry, I'm, I'm overloaded, I have to chill, and I will put on, I'll still go, Star Trek is a go to. You know, there's several movies and books, and, you know, as I got older and started reading more, we were talking about this a little bit ago, I discovered Edgar Allen Poe.
Sandi:Yep.
Candy:Right? And then H. P. Lovecraft.
Sandi:Yeah.
Candy:You know?
Sandi:These things were not fucked up at all. Not even a little bit for a kid.
Candy:I know, I think about that a lot. Like, would I allow my children to read Edgar Allen Poe? Well, yes, I would. Yes, I would. It would be hypocritical if I said no, but just thinking about some of the stories and how messed up they were. But I needed that.
Sandi:Yeah,
Candy:I needed that. That horror going back into that horror aspect, like, holy shit, at least I'm not being bricked up into a wall, you know, I'm not like having to deal with the elder gods coming up and wanting to destroy the world as we know it. I'm okay because I don't have to deal with that, you know, and reading, we talked about this a little bit ago too, reading. You're safe. Yes. All this bad shit is happening, but you can close the page. Yep. You know, if it gets a little intense or a little too real, even if something touches on whatever's happening in my personal world, I can close it and be like, okay, well, it's time for my little pony then.
Sandi:Everything in balance.
Candy:Exactly. I'm having this flashback as you're talking of the first time I read The Shining. Yeah. I don't think I actually read that one.
Sandi:Oh, it's such a different story and it's so much more involved than How it's been presented on film, which of course it is But and I don't want to knock the films because I did enjoy those as well, but they're very different um, but yeah When you were talking I just was remember reading about the shining and reading about how danny feels about his dad And the dad's substance abuse and because I had a dad who dabbled in substances pretty much most of his life as a self medication for bipolar disorder, um, that, that just struck me as something that was like sitting heavy on my chest so I needed to say it out loud.
Candy:Oh yeah. Yeah. And it's just like, now when I watch, I'll watch horror movies or I'll watch murder shows, you know, I can really get into them until they hit a nerve and it strikes a little too close to home and I'm not in the mood to compartmentalize or dissociate from it for a moment, you know, try not to do that. Like to be in the present and, uh, then I have to shut it down, find something else to escape into.
Sandi:Yeah. All reasonable and all necessary. I love the fact that, that we were like reading Edgar Allen Poe at probably roughly the same ages, even though we're a few years apart now. You know, like I got that unabridged version of, um, Edgar Allen Poe's work when I was eight years old. I asked for it specifically for Christmas, eight years old. What are we doing? What are we doing reading Edgar Allen Poe at eight years old? But we, I remember we studied it in school. Yeah. Did you? Yeah, we went to a play. We read, it was like a child version of, uh, the Telltale Heart. Okay. And then they took it, and because it was like a part of an English thing, like a creative writing English thing, and then we ended up going to a play, and, of the Telltale Heart, and it was a children's theater. But they had the lights turned really down low. And it was the first time that I sort of fell in love with like scene and I'm now I'm like, oh Things are clicking into place for me Like this was a core memory installed because they had a red light underneath the floorboard of the theater And then there was like plat, you know, what do you call them pallets on top chopped up on top? Okay, and then the red light shining through and then sort of the voice coming out of like, you know, I'm down here I'm down here and then finding out that this, you know, character had buried the father underneath the floorboards. I mean, this is like serious content for kids who were like seven and eight years old.
Candy:Yes, it is.
Sandi:And I, it stuck with me and I still, I mean, I love that story to this day.
Candy:That's great.
Sandi:It's amazing.
Candy:Yes. So as we were talking earlier about how our, Escapism has evolved over time and, you know, started out with Poe, Lovecraft, and then when I hit 8th grade I discovered Stephen King, and I kind of feel like I read, like, the really messed up stuff first and then went back a little bit with Stephen King, you know, because I think Lovecraft can be, I don't know. Anyway, and then Koontz. And then, Clive Barker.
Sandi:Yeah.
Candy:Clive Barker.
Sandi:Woo!
Candy:Probably my favorite. I think because there's some messed up stuff in there and I sure is the more fucked up the better for me Yeah, whether it's books movies Television I'm like, give me oh!
Sandi:I'm over here nodding furiously if you need to know that but yeah, yes. We have that in common, and I think that's one of the things that I really like about working with you is like, I can tell you some, Oh, I watched this really fucked up thing. You're like, me too. Pretty much everybody I have in my close circle, like my bestie too, same, same kind of thing. I watch this really fucked up thing. Oh, tell me what it is. I can't wait to watch
Candy:it. I know, right? Yes, exactly. Exactly.
Sandi:It's also the clinician in me too, of like, how are we coming up with these ideas and what drives people to create some of these things. Well, sometimes the answer is flat out trauma. What did you see? What happened to us? You know, even so far as like war trauma, natural disaster, you know, like Tom Savini, he's one of my favorite and he's like a God of special effects. Oh, he was a photographer in Vietnam.
Candy:Oh, that. is cool.
Sandi:Where do you think all of his effects came from? What inspired that? Oh my gosh. So he took his trauma and literally turned it into fucking art, like physical art.
Candy:Right.
Sandi:So good.
Candy:That's exactly what I do with my own writing.
Sandi:Yeah, you do. I do. If I'm feeling a particular way, I will take that and channel that energy into a certain character.
Candy:Even if I'm not going to use that piece in a book, like I was feeling particularly crusty about a situation with somebody and I needed to, Oh my God, it was like eating my lunch. And what I did was I took my. most awful character in my book. And I'm like, okay, so this major event just happened in my story. This character ended up here. Go, you know, and I wrote first person from his point of view and it helped get all that out of me. And I came up with a cool piece of writing that may or may not see the light of day, but I was able to escape into my own world.
Sandi:Yes.
Candy:And put all those emotions and feelings and blah by writing some really fucked up stuff. I just wrote some really fucked up stuff yesterday. So much so that I'm like, I'm done. I had to close up the laptop. I'm like, whew, that was heavy. I'm done. I need to watch She Ra or something now. I need a palate cleanser.
Sandi:Something a little lighter. Yes. Yes. I love it. Palate cleanser.
Candy:A little bit.
Sandi:The idea of like rewriting your narrative. You know, when we talk about narrative therapy or narrative approaches to therapy, how do we, how do we change the story of what we've lived into something that we can accept? or where we can take vengeance in a way that we couldn't do in real life.
Candy:Yes
Sandi:That can be amazingly therapeutic for people to do either with a guide a therapist or on your own. Yeah But sometimes it can be really heavy and I would encourage people if you do that to process it with someone and if you're not If you still can't shake it like that's a really good way I mean it comes down to like the journaling piece right when people are really feeling overwhelmed I tell them, like, you need to dump your brain out.
Candy:Yep.
Sandi:And what's the best way for you to do that? Do you need to talk into your microphone on your phone? Do you need to go listen to music in the car? Do you need to journal entry? Do you need to just dump your brain out? Because most of the time people report, Oh my God, that makes me feel so much better. I lighter. Yes. And you're describing the same exact experience.
Candy:It is a pressure release valve. Yes. It's like, Exactly. Let me sling some fucking paint on a canvas. I'm gonna use reds, deep blues, and black. Cause that's how I'm feeling. And just paint with my emotions. No matter what. Now I do paint with sunshine and rainbows and happiness and goodness. But man, those paintings where I have dealt with pain. I don't want to say negative emotions, but the heavier emotions are, Oh, they're so raw. They're so raw and you can feel it. You can see it in that painting and that drawing. Yes. All the crud that I've kept inside. Just fucking get it out.
Sandi:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And so,
Sandi:and that's just shadow work right there.
Candy:Is that what you would call shadow work?
Sandi:yeah, taking the worst parts of ourselves, and I don't want to say worst as in they're bad, but the most, the most angry, the most visceral parts of ourselves, and doing something with them in such a way where we get to get it out. You know, like, I walk through sometimes stories with people about, tell me what you would do to this person who hurt you. What would that be like for you? And they get to tell me, and then I don't get to tell anybody. Right. And then they get to go.
Candy:Oh, it is. It is such a relief.
Sandi:Because if we're having those feelings, we can't shame people for having those vengeful, mean, awful, hateful vitriol, right? Because we're human. That's a full range of human experience. Yes, it is. And when bad shit happens to us Sometimes we have to encounter that bad shit and manipulate it in such a way that we can use it to make ourselves feel better. Which, hence your characters, and the things that you write.
Candy:Ugh. Yes.
Sandi:We look at the shadow and we say, hey, come here, I know you have shit to tell me.
Candy:Exactly. Whisper in my ear what you want to say, and I'm going to broadcast it out on the page for you. Right. Yep, bingo. Slurpee delicious. I love it. So we were talking earlier about other things that we do for escapism and a huge one for me since late Teenage years through now, currently active are RPGs. I love role playing games and I'm not, I'm not talking, I mean, I play Baldur's Gate on the computer, you know, we have our adventures, our side quests, you know, I play with my oldest kiddo. And I love that, but hands down for me, there's nothing that compares to the physical tabletop and your d20s and your d6s and everything in between. And your character sheet where you get to develop in this other persona. And funny enough, talk about escapism, most of my characters have been male. I usually play a tank and I'm a male. I'm like, I'm big and I'm tough. I am the first to fucking go out there. I will protect you all with my ginormous sword or my halberd, whatever. And I can take the hits and I won't fucking die. And, and we'll be able to live through this. And that so translates to you know, pent up feelings of my past and feelings too vulnerable. And I'm like, fuck that! I don't have to feel vulnerable. I'm gonna go escape into this world where I play a frickin orc or, what's my favorite? A goliath was my favorite. They're huge. They're like, frickin indestructible, you know? Has been so what's the word I'm trying to think of? It has been so important to my mental well being to be able to escape into those role playing games.
Sandi:I think the word you might be looking for is transformative.
Candy:Transformative. Ooh. Tell me more about that. Like, what do you mean by transformative?
Sandi:Well, what does it sound like?
Candy:Me transforming into a different character?
Sandi:You're turning into, or embracing in yourself, The sense of vulnerableness, the sense of helplessness, the sense of smallness, the sense of lack of control. Yes. And you're literally turning it on its fucking head.
Candy:Oh, yeah.
Sandi:And you're saying, I have all the control. I am the strongest bitch in the room. Right. And guess what? If you, if you don't, if you do something that pisses me off or you do something to try to hurt me or somebody else I like. Right. Or love that's on my team and on my side quest.
Candy:Right.
Sandi:I'm going to take this fucking hammer and I'm going to bash your brains in.
Candy:I love that.
Speaker 2:Nice!
Candy:That's, that's my favorite kind of character. Yeah. Yes. Okay. Transformative. Yes. Yes.
Sandi:I mean, this was like one of the points of the podcast in the first place was to talk about the transformative nature of dealing with trauma, right? And what do we do with it when horrible fucking things happen to us that we have no control over? We find ways to take control of the situation.
Candy:Mm hmm.
Sandi:And that's the best kind of healing that there is. But we do it in such a way that now we're playing with it. And now we incorporate it. And that's the integration piece of like, it's not painful now. I mean, the smile on your face right now, like, you know, and the, yeah, you know,
Candy:yeah, I feel mighty.
Sandi:That's right. That's right. And so you, you go from meek and helpless to mighty and strong. And that's literally transformation.
Candy:Mm hmm. Okay. All right,
Sandi:well done.
Candy:Thank you very much. what about you? What are more things that you do to like escape? Like I wanna hear more about, you know, we talk a lot about horror movies. Tell me about why, what is that for you?
Sandi:I think one of the big draws for me is. Liking that which other people are sort of abhorred by or horrified by. I once had somebody tell me when I was working at a restaurant and I was getting my bachelor's degree and I had almost graduated and I was going through a time in my life where I was just recently diagnosed with depression. And even, even at this point, like the time of year, October, September, I wake up, like, it's my time. It's my time to, it's almost like I have this separate life that sort of grows up and says, okay, it's time to wake up, get out of my way. And I do some very dark things. And it's all theatrical in nature. But I had my boss say to me, But you're so nice on the surface. Like, what's wrong with you that you need this other side of yourself? It's like, oh my God, you don't know me at all, do you? And part of embracing that darkness is because I've been in such very dark places in my life because of my trauma and then because of subsequent traumas like losing my father, worst thing in the world that ever happened to me. But I've always sort of had these fantasies of like, being connected to the other side. And I do have some very spiritual stuff in my family lineage where I have several people in my family who we know stuff. You know, I feel like Tyrion. I drink and I know stuff.
Candy:I was just thinking about that.
Sandi:Except, uh, minus the drinking piece. Except occasionally. But this idea of like embracing the darkness makes me feel in such a way so much more capable as a person in the world. And as a therapist, I'm really attracted to, I mean, I chose working with felons and chose working with sex offenders on purpose because I wanted to understand what happened to them to lead them to this place to do A, B, and C.
Candy:And that is one of the things that I love about you. Because with my own abuser, I had to, I didn't have to, I chose to try to understand motivation, what made him do the things that he did, you know, I love that.
Sandi:And I think if we can develop empathy and compassion and understanding, just sort of in a general way, in the worst of circumstances. I know I've heard some really, I've heard thousands of horrific stories. I'm like this keeper of stories. Right. And I can't tell anybody and I can't share anything.
Candy:Right.
Sandi:And so I have to do something with that. And part of me delving into the darkness is a way for me to feel very much in control of the darkness and like the understanding of the darkness where I can go into a room full of monsters and I know that they're not going to hurt me because I don't give them that power because I understand why they're doing what they're doing,
Candy:Dude. So you said something that really struck me about embracing your darkness. I can't say that I fully have. I let it, I, it's like I've got a little pen and I let it out to play just a little bit. I'm like, all right, you got 30 minutes in the yard starting now.
Sandi:Yes.
Candy:And then go back inside.
Sandi:Ah, okay.
Candy:And so I've only, it's kind of giving me chills thinking about it. And we totally need to talk about this more. That might be a good topic for another. But I, I've only let it out a little bit at a time. Like, there's something in me that feels self conscious about writing the fucked up stuff.
Sandi:Yeah.
Candy:You know, about delving into that dark, which is why I didn't, I've heard people say shadow work and I didn't quite fully understand exactly what that meant, but I have not made peace with my inner darkness. I am intrigued by this conversation.
Sandi:Sure.
Candy:Or well, subject because it's really making me think about more work to do with myself. You know?
Sandi:Well, you and I have had the conversation about I've been dealing with my trauma for many more years than you have, and you just sort of started this process. And I will tell you, anybody who's listening in the audience, does it take decades? Yes. Oftentimes decades, oftentimes years to fully integrate experiences that were of such a severity that it screwed up your entire developmental timeline
Candy:Right.
Sandi:You spend decades, and I'm not saying that you're dysfunctional all those years. I'm just saying that it's, it's the reckoning of it and the soul really has to, and the body really has to do, we have to do it on a multitude of levels. We have to do it mentally to do it cognitively. We have to do it spiritually. We have to do it emotionally. We have to do it somatically in the body. And so when we first start our healing, we don't know all the things and all the doorways they're going to open for us. and I'm not going to try to do like a surprise here, but I already knew that about you, that you were not yet ready, that you were not, because that's normal, especially in early recovery, which you still are.
Candy:Right.
Sandi:Even though you've had two years of sobriety.
Candy:That's nothing.
Sandi:Right. It's still a drop in the bucket compared to where you will be five years from now, or even a year from now.
Candy:Yeah.
Sandi:Because shadow work is all about, here's my garbage. I'm out. It's sort of like coming out of the closet, but with all the horrific shit, and then just taking ownership of it. And it's obviously more complex than that.
Candy:Oh, totally. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, this is this is cool
Sandi:But for years I held shame around I mean that like that judgment from that boss I had well Why are you like this? I mean you need it and I was like look bitch. I Am who I am and you don't know what I've been through, and I get to embrace this side of myself, and if you don't have that or you don't need to do that, that's fine. But you don't get to judge me for doing what I need to do because my story is very different from yours.
Candy:Yes. Yes. And that's what we forget to Think about often, I think, is somebody else's experience is completely different. Everybody's experience is different from everybody else's.
Sandi:That's right.
Candy:There's no two ways about it.
Sandi:That's right.
Candy:Because we all process information differently. We receive information differently. Right. And we have a different lens with which we view the world.
Sandi:That's
Candy:right. You know, and that's how I keep myself in check from judging people for what they do and how they do.
Sandi:Right.
Candy:I'm like, bitch, you have no idea what they are going through, what they have been through, what they're dealing with at this present moment.
Sandi:That's right.
Candy:So shut the fuck up and just keep your side of the street clean.
Sandi:That's right. That's right. Well, and that's like the one thing people often ask me, like, what's the one thing about the world that you would change? I would say everyone needs to go take a class on perspective taking and being able to say, okay, this person's experience and their behavior is so different from mine. And I should just mind my own fucking business and worry, like you said, about my side of the yard. Don't be going up and picking up shit in your neighbor's yard because maybe that shit is there for a reason.
Candy:Exactly.
Sandi:Like, leave it be because we know at the end of the day, we, I mean, I think we've said this before in another episode, people are not ready to change and see things about themselves until they're fucking good and ready to do so.
Candy:Damn right. And you giving them negative feedback about something that you feel like you have a judgment about. Oh, why do you wear black clothes? Oh, why do you do this? Why are you, you know, why blah blah blah. They have reasons. Yeah.
Sandi:And let people, unless they're harming people, unless they're being abrasive and obnoxious and harming people, just let people be. It's not your business. Right. But understand that they're a different person from you.
Candy:Exactly.
Sandi:So perspective taking 101, give the certificate at birth, and then go take a class and stay there as long as you need to until you get it. And do we all judge? Of course we do. That's like the human nature to want to put things in categories to describe it and explain it so we understand it. But when it steps into that crevasse of now we're trying to control other people's behavior, or control what they're doing, or control who they love, or control how they, what they do with their body, No. That's where it stops.
Candy:Right. Oh yeah, I mean I get, I get judged on my outward appearance all the time. I'm sure. Most of the time I don't pay attention, but every once in a while I will catch the hairy eye from somebody. You know, I had a friend who used to give me shit about, you know, all my facial hardware, as I like to call it. Sure. You know, why do you, why do you have all that shit in your face, is what she would say. You know, what a fun friend. Okay. Yeah. She was not, she's yeah. And why do I do my hair a certain way? I'm like, why do you fucking care how I do my hair and my makeup? I'm not, I'm not you. I am me. You know, I just want to be who I am. And. Yeah.
Sandi:Judgment is often learned, isn't it?
Candy:Yep.
Sandi:People who feel the most judged often judge other people the Most harshly.
Candy:That is not to say that I have not had my moments of judging others.
Sandi:Oh, we all have. We all have. But we need to have enough self awareness to catch ourselves. Right, exactly. And go, oh wait, um, stop.
Candy:I'm so much better Yeah, stop. At catching myself Right. With that nowadays.
Speaker:Are there more things that you wanted to talk about, Did I answer all your questions, first of all?
Candy:Yeah, totally. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah,
Sandi:There's safety and darkness for me because I spent just to kind of cap off My my experiences really led me to feel in a very dark place that because it was my shadow stuff I did not feel comfortable for many, many decades sharing in a way that was honest with other people, but inside I knew, and I knew at some point there would be a reckoning. And my reckoning is I just get to be out, and I get to share what happened to me, and people get to hear it, and that's it. But I'm comfortable in the dark places because I know what the darkness means.
Candy:I like that. We're going to talk about this more. I think we need to make a whole episode on it.
Sandi:Schwing!
Candy:As I was writing down topics about escapism, a lot of my favorite personal escapism is like Portal fantasy.
Sandi:Say more about that.
Candy:So, Portal opens up, you fucking step through, you are in a different world.
Sandi:Got it. Got it. Yes.
Candy:And You know, I make this joke a lot, and I will continue to make it until I die. When I'm hiking, you know, I'm like, you find those beautifully formed archways, right? And I'm like, oh god, please be a portal. I am not kidding. I'm like, When I step through this, please let it be some fucking fantasy, different world I've never been to. Yes. And, and it hasn't happened yet, but if I ever end up missing, I have found a portal. Mm hmm. You know, and I have decided to step through. You know?
Sandi:Send me the address.
Candy:Fuck yeah, I will. I'll be like, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, can I bring some friends along?
Sandi:Hmm. Mm hmm.
Candy:Please. And then we'll have our own D& D campaign in real life in this fantasy world. But yeah, I'm just thinking of some of my favorite books. You've got Piers Anthony, the Xanth series. I don't know if you ever read that.
Sandi:I'm not familiar.
Candy:It is. It is an entire world based off of puns. It's just a fun time. It's actually where I got my youngest kiddo's name was from Vale of the Bull.
Sandi:Oh, that's adorable.
Candy:It is. I love her name so much. And then one of my other favorite books is by Greg Baer. He writes mostly sci fi. My favorite is a fantasy novel of his. It's called Songs of Earth and Power, and it's a combination of two. It's the Serpent Mage and the Infinity Concerto. And this kid follows instructions to go through this house, and he has to go through the backyard, and then, you know, go into another yard, and he's in this whole other place, and he has to learn how to survive and make it in this world. I'm like thinking about that right now. And why I like that so much, it's giving me chills talking about it, is because it is a quest to find the self. Yes. And, and I have been, I didn't realize it until recently, like, I don't know, the past like two years of sobriety.
Sandi:Huh. Funny how that works.
Candy:I know. Like, I've been trying to find myself and going on adventures like we talked about in last episode. The more that I do, the more points of information that I gather, the more I can figure out who I am. Myself is yes, who am I?
Sandi:Nice.
Candy:And so that's been huge for me. It's not just like Escaping into a world where it's totally fucking different It's it's the development of the self. You know this person or this key this character has to frickin Go through some shit to grow up. Mm hmm And that it's, it's parallel to my life and, and I'm like, I can relate to that. I'm all, yeah, that's fucking me in that book right there.
Sandi:Do you know what's so interesting about this? I'm sitting here and I'm staring at you and I'm loving what you're saying and I'm loving everything that you're coming to. But this is how things are for most humans on the planet. But most people don't know that they are in a constant pursuance of the capital S self. of what it means to be human, of what it means to have a full range of human experience, whether that is grief and loss or whether it is this insane happiness or whether it's having children, what that that idea of like existentialism of like what gives life meaning.
Candy:Yeah.
Sandi:Right. And so everything you're talking about, as you talked about, even this sort of stages of your own development, Like, I want you to read Carl Jung and understand that you are doing like your subconscious and your unconscious are starting to gain traction with your consciousness.
Candy:Yes.
Sandi:And you're pulling those things out of the depths and starting to tune in and walking through new doorways of. knowledge of experience of emotion of love of connection of loving yourself of knowing who yourself is. And all of that together equates to the capital S self and the individuation process of becoming your highest self.
Candy:So I studied psychology in college for a little while and shit was real heavy my second year in. The semester that we were to study Jung, is the semester that I dropped out.
Speaker:Okay.
Candy:I am so sad about that, especially right now. Jung keeps coming up. The universe is telling me that I need to study some Jung. And yeah, I'm there. I'm all for it. Jung, William James.
Sandi:Okay. So I just, I think that the escapism piece, kind of come back around, that idea of the escapism. Often people have to have, other experiences and step outside their comfort zone in order to really find their whole self and find that individuation process. And individuation, unfortunately, is often a place of very much privilege. I just want to mention that. because if we can't meet, if we go back to sort of like Maslow's hierarchy of needs, yeah, home, safety, shelter, friends, social connections, industry, those kinds of things. If we can't meet those things, meet those basic needs, it is very hard to get to the top of the pyramid. So even the individuation of self over a span of time, which is a very natural process that most humans do if we're following that sort of developmental cycle. Spectrum and timeline, right? If we don't have housing, if we don't have appropriate food, if we don't have access to medical care, if we don't have love and safety and connection and we're stuck in substances, in homelessness, in poverty, in abuse cycles, in, you know, cycles of grief and loss. All of those things keep held back from the individuation process.
Candy:That's interesting.
Sandi:I just wanted to mention that because it's important for me to help people understand that as we move across that cycle of life, many people will not get there because they simply don't have all the means to ensure the safety so that they can complete those developmental tasks.
Candy:Dude, I never would have thought of that.
Sandi:And that breaks my heart.
Candy:I never even considered that. That's interesting. And so, like, automatically I would put myself in a privileged, you know, category, but I'm thinking about it and I'm like, Bitch, how fucking privileged were you? You were stunted in your emotional growth for 33 years.
Sandi:Yeah,
Candy:that is not privileged. You know, I listen to people talk about not experiencing trauma as a kid and I'm all, you're kidding, right? Like, yeah, what? Right. I can't even fathom. I know, I know. What that is like. Same. Oh, it's, that's. Same. Oh, man. There's so much to talk about with you yes. So, you know, when I was writing notes on wrapping this up, it is escapism can be numbing.
Sandi:Yes.
Candy:So you have to watch out for that and only do it in moderation. Yeah. I used to escape into books a little too much. When I was a teenager, I was pregnant and embarrassed and I'm just like fuck all the kids They're mean. I'm just gonna be in my books and instead of getting out enough It's also healthy coping mechanism, you know Whether it's just getting out of your own head into a completely different place or whether you want to identify With this big tough Goliath character, you know, it can help you deal with whatever is going on mentally, which can help you process how you're feeling, your thoughts and emotions.
Sandi:There was something that you said and my brain went numb. Oh, the, the idea of escapism, kind of what you said about the too much versus too little, of course, there's a spectrum, right? Yeah. But I think everybody's happy medium is going to look different because if I think of people who are very, introverted versus very extroverted. People who are very stressed out by with like their, their sensory processing gets overloaded by being around too many people, too much business, too much noise, too many, you know, just too much. Many people who are introverted do not have the tolerance levels that somebody who's more extroverted will have. So their escapism is going to look a lot more chronic, which may be interpreted by other people as dysfunctional but they may need the safety of that to be able to, like, when you see introverts like hang out together, they're sitting in the same room and they look like they're ignoring each other. It's like, you know, but they're reading their own books, doing their own things. It's like parallel play. When kids are toddlers, they don't necessarily know how to do cooperative play yet. And, and I don't think that. I don't have a developmental perspective on that because I don't think we want to look at introverts and go well You know, you're still parallel and playing like you're a toddler. No, their brain is wired in such a way that this is what their needs are They get filled by quiet being alone doing their own thing. Then we have the extroverts, who, I'm ambiverted because I deal, I deal with stuff all week and I'm with people and then by the time Friday rolls around, my voice is done. Like I'm, and I cannot find words and my, my coherent logical thoughts sort of go out the window. Now it's time for Sandi to do some escapism of some sort to sort of work through that and, and shelve it so that I can go and have fun too. So I just wanted to clarify that piece of like, it's a spectrum, but it's going to depend on who you are, what your needs are. And again, that perspective of each person is different.
Speaker 2:Yes. I appreciate you mentioning that because it, it does make a big difference, right? You know, I never would have understood that like 10 years ago, I would have had an opinion about it. Right. Right. You know, so. Well, this has been a fun conversation on escapism. I could talk about escapism for hours. I know. I know. Me too.
Sandi:I think the, the one thing that I am, I've learned about myself through listening to you today is that, and I knew this about myself, but I think just, I want to say it out loud is that I have always had a very rich internal world. And the things that you go out and do in the forest, I like that too, but I've always done that in my head. Like, I can close my eyes and get into a meditative state and go anywhere I want. And that is like actually being there.
Candy:Yeah. The body processes it. Yes. The brain processes it. As if you were there. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, oh, we need to talk about that in future episodes. Yeah. Because, yes, please. Um, well and I, I also learned from this episode that I need to, embracing my darkness more. You know, and it's coming out in little bits and pieces. I'm like, Jesus Christ, did I just fucking write that?
Sandi:I know. Every time I, every time I get a glimpse of her, I'm like doing my woo woo, like trying to pull that out more. But it's not my job. So I don't, and I just sort of listen and observe and I'm like,'cause I watch you when we've watched a couple films together. Yeah. And I can see, I can see the gears just whirr. Oh God. Spinning around. And then, you know, I'm like you haven't gotten there yet. Right. And that's perfectly fine. Right. It's not my business to push on that.'cause I'm not your therapist. I'm not, you know, I'm on the outside looking in, but I can't wait to see that unfold for you.
Candy:Oh. I'm excited too, shit. I've like cracked open the door and the monster's got its big hairy foot sticking out and I'm all, oh, big guy, what does the rest of you look like, you know?
Sandi:Right. And what's really nice is you can make him look however you want him to look.
Candy:I'm going to draw my, my darkness. What does my inner darkness look like?
Sandi:Now we're into future episode territory.
Candy:Hell yes.
Sandi:And I think we should do something where later, like, if you get to that point where you've defined that visual monster, we should put that on the website so that you can share it with people.
Candy:No pressure.
Sandi:None. None. I'm just saying.
Candy:You know what, I, I have drawn little bits of what Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, this is gonna be a thing. Yeah. I need, that's my homework. Oh my god.
Sandi:I love it. Do a podcast, now you have homework.
Candy:I love, I love homework. I'm, I'm a big ol nerd. Gimme all the homework.
Sandi:Yeah, no. I like the experiential, do it, and then move past it, and it's in the memory bank.
Candy:No, I like to get deep.
Sandi:Yeah, I just don't need to write it out because, again, I do this all day long, like every single day of conceptualizing cases and what goes where and how can I do this and what can I give this patient to, you know, sort of help them move along. And so I just do it all in my head. And I just, it's up there. The file cabinet is just rusty sometimes, so maybe I should be writing shit down. I don't know.
Candy:I have to write it down I have to as much visual processing as I do. I still have to write shit down.
Sandi:Yeah, for sure.
Candy:Well, this was fun!
Sandi:Yeah, this was a good time today. All right So I guess our recommendation to you as humans in the world is to go play Go figure out some escapism for yourself and go do that thing. you know, whether that means you take a drive by yourself and you pretend like you're crawling through a portal in a forest or, you know, you sit and meditate and you think about your safe place or you create a visualization in your head of like where you would want to go and what you would do while you were there and, you know, sipping the smells and the sights and like taking it all in. So whatever escapism looks like for you, as long as it's not causing you or others harm...
Candy:Highly recommend.
Sandi:Go do it!
Speaker:Yes, do the thing.
Sandi:All right. Well, we will see you next week for episode seven of The Cloaked Tatters. Thanks so much for joining us today.
Candy:Talk to you soon!